[A-W-C]

My message to all those who still use ladders all day well there is a 100% chance of it happening to them than those who don`t

[lozsing]

Bump

[Mr. S]

very sad and moving!

I relate to this because although i am wfp for 6 years, last year using ladders for access i fell broke my ribs and punctured my lung. i fell on my back but was lucky! could have been worse! All because i was preoccupied with family stresses!

A lesson hard learnt!

[trevor perry]

very sad, but it wont stop me using ladders on the odd occasions i think it is necessary, there are far greater risks taken everyday,  if you are experienced in ladderwork and take reasonable precautions in my opinion it is still an exceptable risk.
 For all those that commented above does this mean next time any tradesman comes to work on your property you are going to send him away if he attempts to use a ladder, it is all down to personal choice just like smoking is and i am sure that many who posted above will smoke even though the facts state they are killing themselves and is more of a risk than using a ladder.
  i understand peoples personal choice not to use ladders but why try to make out they are more dangerous than many other activities we take for granted

[andrew hamshare]

Nice touch having Robbie Coltrane doing the interviews at the end.  Tic.

I have worked with many people with disabilities, birth and acquired.  An acquired disability can/does have a profound effect on your life.  The deeper psychological impact is a  genuine 'identity crisis'.  It is recognised and discussed by some genius experts, like Erving Goffman and Eric Ericsson (to name but two) if anyone is interested in some further reading.

Hopefully people who watch that will 'get it' but without wishing to patronise anyone reading this or Jason himself, I want people to realise that it is not the physical 'damage' at all, they are hurdles, bloody big hurdles I grant you, but hurdles are by definition things that can be overcome.  The biggest disability that befalls someone involved in this kind of life changing 'accident' is psychological.  It CAN be worse too, he could have been a dead man. 

Sorry, still a bit of my heart in my old job.
Andy H

[rosskesava]

I thought the bloke in the video was on about taking silly risks and assuming 'it won't happen to me' as opposed to using a ladder properly.

I don't recall him saying to never use a ladder.

[Bay View WCS]

A sobering film which should be compulsory reading for every existing and potential worker.

very sad, but it wont stop me using ladders on the odd occasions i think it is necessary, there are far greater risks taken everyday,  if you are experienced in ladderwork and take reasonable precautions in my opinion it is still an exceptable risk.
 For all those that commented above does this mean next time any tradesman comes to work on your property you are going to send him away if he attempts to use a ladder, it is all down to personal choice just like smoking is and i am sure that many who posted above will smoke even though the facts state they are killing themselves and is more of a risk than using a ladder.
  i understand peoples personal choice not to use ladders but why try to make out they are more dangerous than many other activities we take for granted

Sorry Trev but I'm going to have to go into one here:

it wont stop me using ladders on the odd occasions i think it is necessary

But when is it really 'necessary' - how is that assessed or measured?

there are far greater risks taken everyday

I'm not sure I agree.  Please give me an example of where each day you launch into a life/mobility-threatening activity because there is simply no safer way of doing it.

if you are experienced in ladderwork and take reasonable precautions in my opinion it is still an exceptable risk.

Window cleaners 'experienced in ladderwork' die every year despite having 'taken reasonable precautions'.  It seems (and please correct me if I am wrong) that given these factors you would be willing to risk your mobility or life on earning a few quid.  I can’t for the life of me see how you would class this as an ‘acceptable risk’.   Now I’m not saying don’t use a ladder – I use a small extension one myself – what I am saying is this is a completely UNacceptable risk.  The very idea of risk is based on the notion of a cost-benefit relationship – essentially you are saying (I believe) that you take the (relatively small) amount money for carrying out the practice and if you die or have a serious accident then that is ‘acceptable’.  How is that logic formed please?

For all those that commented above does this mean next time any tradesman comes to work on your property you are going to send him away if he attempts to use a ladder,

Yes, I’ve done just that.  I needed a new aerial fitted to my chimney stack.  Now I like to use local lads to do the work so rang a one-man-band guy in the paper.   After giving me the quote I asked him when he could do the work and when he told me the next day I said great and booked him if he could just conduct his risk assessment and let me have a look at his method statement and his liability insurance.  He laughed like I was taking the p!  After asking him further questions turns out he wasn’t planning to foot or secure the ladder, or wear a safety harness, in fact I don’t think he could spell the word safety.  I told him he wouldn’t be getting the job and also gave him some info about H&S (and about Occupiers Liability) and hopefully pointed him in the right direction. 
 
Now I wasn’t saying: ‘ere mate - you should only be fixing an aerial up with one of them extendable pole thingies!’; my point was that there was no attempt to minimise the risks to an ‘acceptable’ level.  In his view, he thought making sure the ladder was seated on level, dry and solid ground was taking ‘reasonable precautions’ and therefore the risk was ‘acceptable’. 

The second guy was the same but third was wiser, safer and got the job; he was also the most expensive.

it is all down to personal choice just like smoking is and i am sure that many who posted above will smoke even though the facts state they are killing themselves and is more of a risk than using a ladder.

It IS all down to personal choice – you have your life in your own hands and you choose either to safeguard it or treat it with abandon.  Smoking is an addiction and not a daily choice to kill themselves; I can’t see most windies nipping outside with a pair of ladder and running up 2 sets of rungs so they can get their hourly fix of ‘acceptable’ risk.  Even smokers realise the risk they are taking and try to minimise the consequences by using filters smoking less toxic cigs or cutting down – very similar to ‘taking reasonable precautions’ really!

I do not do any trad/hand cleaning work that is not at ground level and anywhere that doesn’t open the gate for access doesn’t get done – to me no amount of money is worth not being able to return home safely to my daughter each day. 
I think, with respect, your view of what is ‘acceptable’ is a little off.   Try taking a loved one with you and every time you get up on a ladder inform them you could die doing that and then chirp in with how much you get paid for doing it.  Then, ask them if it is worth it and whether the risk is ‘acceptable’.  You might be surprised with the response you receive.

Cheers, Tom


p.s.  for those that are interested, my next post will be a continuance of the classic novel War and Peace    ; and I’m up so early as I have a commercial to start at 5.30am 

[rosskesava]

Next time you get in the car with your wife and daughter, point out all the risks of the potential accidents, the very real possibility of injury and death.......

I take it that you and your family will always be going by bus or walking because people die everyday on the roads. Why take the risk of driving?

[trevor perry]

i respect your view bayview and also can understand why many wont use ladders, have you ever rode a horse, been on a bicycle or motorbike on a busy road , do you check all your food to see if it contains aspartane or genetically modified ingredients the list can go on and on and research has been shown that shows all the above are dangerous.
 With a ladder i know my own physical capabilities and if i do fall there would be no one else to blame but myself i am quite happy to take this personal choice and am happy for people to point out the risks but i object to people trying to put in laws to stop me having this personal choice that effects nobody but myself and my family.
 

[Bay View WCS]

Next time you get in the car with your wife and daughter, point out all the risks of the potential accidents, the very real possibility of injury and death.......

I take it that you and your family will always be going by bus or walking because people die everyday on the roads. Why take the risk of driving?

I refer you to my earlier question as to how the activity is assessed to be 'necessary'.  Is it really 'necessary' to get up there on the ladder for access to earn a few more quid?  Is it a large percentage of your income?  If I held out a fiver and said 'by all means climb up but you may die' is that money worth your life - when you can simply refuse to do it - I don't consider that to be the definition of 'necessary'.

Driving isn't a suitable comparison as travel simply is necessary to live your life in any meaningful way.  It also completely ignores the hundreds of safety precautions that the manufacturers have incorporated into the design of vehicles and also those you take yourself such as putting on a seatbelt, driving within the speed limit for the road and weather conditions, not driving until you are fit to do so- passing a driving test for example.

What we are talking about here is taking an avoidable, UNnecessary risk for very little reward.  The risk reward ratio just doesn't cut it for me - but if it does for you then I certainly can't demonise you - just not the way I choose to go.

But hey - we've all gotta die of something right?  Look up quickly because the point I was making is flying right over your head.   

Merry Christmas

[Bay View WCS]

i respect your view bayview and also can understand why many wont use ladders, have you ever rode a horse, been on a bicycle or motorbike on a busy road , do you check all your food to see if it contains aspartane or genetically modified ingredients the list can go on and on and research has been shown that shows all the above are dangerous.
 With a ladder i know my own physical capabilities and if i do fall there would be no one else to blame but myself i am quite happy to take this personal choice and am happy for people to point out the risks but i object to people trying to put in laws to stop me having this personal choice that effects nobody but myself and my family.
 

Hey Trev thanks for not taking it personal - just trying to get a small point across really.

I just think that the guy in the video is a good example of another who 'knew his physical capabilities'.  You can't possibly 'know' before the accident has happened really.  Also, the line 'there would be no-one else to blame but myself' and 'being happy to take the personal choice' comes across as fairly selfish - look at what a huge, massive, enormous affect that fella's accident had on his mates, his parents, his missus - and most importantly his kids; not sure if you have any kids yourself but consider what a blow it was for his son not to be able to play footie with his dad and for his daughter not to be walked down the aisle - all for a few quid 20 years ago.  And to be fair, the lad got away relatively lucky in that he survived at all.

Cheers, Tom

[trevor perry]

i respect your view bayview and also can understand why many wont use ladders, have you ever rode a horse, been on a bicycle or motorbike on a busy road , do you check all your food to see if it contains aspartane or genetically modified ingredients the list can go on and on and research has been shown that shows all the above are dangerous.
 With a ladder i know my own physical capabilities and if i do fall there would be no one else to blame but myself i am quite happy to take this personal choice and am happy for people to point out the risks but i object to people trying to put in laws to stop me having this personal choice that effects nobody but myself and my family.
 

Hey Trev thanks for not taking it personal - just trying to get a small point across really.

I just think that the guy in the video is a good example of another who 'knew his physical capabilities'.  You can't possibly 'know' before the accident has happened really.  Also, the line 'there would be no-one else to blame but myself' and 'being happy to take the personal choice' comes across as fairly selfish - look at what a huge, massive, enormous affect that fella's accident had on his mates, his parents, his missus - and most importantly his kids; not sure if you have any kids yourself but consider what a blow it was for his son not to be able to play footie with his dad and for his daughter not to be walked down the aisle - all for a few quid 20 years ago.  And to be fair, the lad got away relatively lucky in that he survived at all.

Cheers, Tom

 i agree it would be terrible for family members the same as it would be for me if one of my boys fell of his bike and died or fell out of a tree i allowed him to climb just for the bit of pleasure the experience of doing these activities gave him  life is cruel and we sometimes get the crappy end of the stick but i have also had some great times as a kid doing things that could of severley harmed me, if an accident occurred would i think differently then granted  maybe i would

[Bay View WCS]

i respect your view bayview and also can understand why many wont use ladders, have you ever rode a horse, been on a bicycle or motorbike on a busy road , do you check all your food to see if it contains aspartane or genetically modified ingredients the list can go on and on and research has been shown that shows all the above are dangerous.
 With a ladder i know my own physical capabilities and if i do fall there would be no one else to blame but myself i am quite happy to take this personal choice and am happy for people to point out the risks but i object to people trying to put in laws to stop me having this personal choice that effects nobody but myself and my family.
 

Hey Trev thanks for not taking it personal - just trying to get a small point across really.

I just think that the guy in the video is a good example of another who 'knew his physical capabilities'.  You can't possibly 'know' before the accident has happened really.  Also, the line 'there would be no-one else to blame but myself' and 'being happy to take the personal choice' comes across as fairly selfish - look at what a huge, massive, enormous affect that fella's accident had on his mates, his parents, his missus - and most importantly his kids; not sure if you have any kids yourself but consider what a blow it was for his son not to be able to play footie with his dad and for his daughter not to be walked down the aisle - all for a few quid 20 years ago.  And to be fair, the lad got away relatively lucky in that he survived at all.

Cheers, Tom

 i agree it would be terrible for family members the same as it would be for me if one of my boys fell of his bike and died or fell out of a tree i allowed him to climb just for the bit of pleasure the experience of doing these activities gave him  life is cruel and we sometimes get the crappy end of the stick but i have also had some great times as a kid doing things that could of severley harmed me, if an accident occurred would i think differently then granted  maybe i would

Fair point.

Anyway, all a bit depressing at this time of year I suppose - best wishes of the season to you and yours!   

[rosskesava]

Next time you get in the car with your wife and daughter, point out all the risks of the potential accidents, the very real possibility of injury and death.......

I take it that you and your family will always be going by bus or walking because people die everyday on the roads. Why take the risk of driving?

I refer you to my earlier question as to how the activity is assessed to be 'necessary'.  Is it really 'necessary' to get up there on the ladder for access to earn a few more quid?  Is it a large percentage of your income?  If I held out a fiver and said 'by all means climb up but you may die' is that money worth your life - when you can simply refuse to do it - I don't consider that to be the definition of 'necessary'.

Driving isn't a suitable comparison as travel simply is necessary to live your life in any meaningful way.  It also completely ignores the hundreds of safety precautions that the manufacturers have incorporated into the design of vehicles and also those you take yourself such as putting on a seatbelt, driving within the speed limit for the road and weather conditions, not driving until you are fit to do so- passing a driving test for example.

What we are talking about here is taking an avoidable, UNnecessary risk for very little reward.  The risk reward ratio just doesn't cut it for me - but if it does for you then I certainly can't demonise you - just not the way I choose to go.

But hey - we've all gotta die of something right?  Look up quickly because the point I was making is flying right over your head.    

Merry Christmas

Cars may be safer now than they were but injury and death still occur on a daily basis.

So driving when there is an alternative means to travel to somewhere like the shops, visiting, and so on, is an acceptable risk to you even though it increases chances of injury or death. That is a perfect example of unnecessary risk taking. The very same in terms of possible outcome that you have applied to using ladders.

[Ian Lancaster]

Can I draw your attention to the first few words of his address?  He actually says that his employer told him to do a job that he knew was dangerous

I didn't watch all the film, but the few minutes I did watch (after he glossed over the reason for his fall) were devoted exclusively to the effect the accident had on him and his ongoing problems.

My take on this is that yes, it was a devastating thing to happen to that poor guy, but it wasn't just his employer's fault, it was his.

He knew it was dangerous, and yet as far as I can tell he did nothing to try to minimise that danger.

I cleaned windows from a ladder for over 40 years and I'm no miracle man - I had a few falls but every single fall was my own fault and was totally avoidable.  Being a slow learner it took me a while to work out that every fall from a ladder is the fault of the user, not the fault of the ladder.

Banning the use of ladders (or even declaring that no-one ought to use them) is the wrong response.  There will always be ladders and there will always be people who use them thoughtlessly and dangerously.  My belief is that the right way to tackle the problem is to make it a condition of the sale of ladders that they carry a government health warning, just like cigarettes: SMOKING WILL KILL YOU.

For ladders: IMPROPER USE WILL KILL YOU.  Followed by a clear statement that all falls will be the result of the user not taking proper precautions and a strong recommendation to undertake training before use.

Far from being objects of malice and in-built evil waiting to kill any innocent unfortunate unwise enough to actually use one, ladders are useful, convenient and, in the proper hands, as safe as it's possible to make any inherently risky apparatus.

I repeat:  FALLS FROM A LADDER ARE ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE USER.  I firmly believe this and I challenge anyone to imagine a situation where a fall couldn't have been avoided by a few seconds thought before climbing.  Before anyone tries to shoot me down, I accept that it is possible that a building may topple over or that the ground (which looked solid and firm) could crack open, or that some homicidal maniac could grab the stiles and pull the ladder away.

Far from treating my ladders as objects to be feared, I thoroughly enjoyed my 40+ years running up and down them .  I use my experience to advise my franchisees of the correct way to use a ladder; to perform a mini risk assessment before every climb; to test the ground with their foot to see if it is slippery, loose or soft and to ensure that the ladder cannot slip/move etc.

Chain saws are incredibly dangerous pieces of equipment, but very few operatives saw off their arms/heads etc. because they have proper training and any fool can see that a chainsaw is dangerous.  If ladders were treated with the same sort of respect by everyone who used them, accidents would be as rare as self amputation with a chainsaw.

[trevor perry]

Can I draw your attention to the first few words of his address?  He actually says that his employer told him to do a job that he knew was dangerous

I didn't watch all the film, but the few minutes I did watch (after he glossed over the reason for his fall) were devoted exclusively to the effect the accident had on him and his ongoing problems.

My take on this is that yes, it was a devastating thing to happen to that poor guy, but it wasn't just his employer's fault, it was his.

He knew it was dangerous, and yet as far as I can tell he did nothing to try to minimise that danger.

I cleaned windows from a ladder for over 40 years and I'm no miracle man - I had a few falls but every single fall was my own fault and was totally avoidable.  Being a slow learner it took me a while to work out that every fall from a ladder is the fault of the user, not the fault of the ladder.

Banning the use of ladders (or even declaring that no-one ought to use them) is the wrong response.  There will always be ladders and there will always be people who use them thoughtlessly and dangerously.  My belief is that the right way to tackle the problem is to make it a condition of the sale of ladders that they carry a government health warning, just like cigarettes: SMOKING WILL KILL YOU.

For ladders: IMPROPER USE WILL KILL YOU.  Followed by a clear statement that all falls will be the result of the user not taking proper precautions and a strong recommendation to undertake training before use.

Far from being objects of malice and in-built evil waiting to kill any innocent unfortunate unwise enough to actually use one, ladders are useful, convenient and, in the proper hands, as safe as it's possible to make any inherently risky apparatus.

I repeat:  FALLS FROM A LADDER ARE ALWAYS THE FAULT OF THE USER.  I firmly believe this and I challenge anyone to imagine a situation where a fall couldn't have been avoided by a few seconds thought before climbing.  Before anyone tries to shoot me down, I accept that it is possible that a building may topple over or that the ground (which looked solid and firm) could crack open, or that some homicidal maniac could grab the stiles and pull the ladder away.

Far from treating my ladders as objects to be feared, I thoroughly enjoyed my 40+ years running up and down them .  I use my experience to advise my franchisees of the correct way to use a ladder; to perform a mini risk assessment before every climb; to test the ground with their foot to see if it is slippery, loose or soft and to ensure that the ladder cannot slip/move etc.

Chain saws are incredibly dangerous pieces of equipment, but very few operatives saw off their arms/heads etc. because they have proper training and any fool can see that a chainsaw is dangerous.  If ladders were treated with the same sort of respect by everyone who used them, accidents would be as rare as self amputation with a chainsaw.

 Great post, now go get your fingers tested for RSI after typing all that

[Scrimble]

i think some are forgetting the message in the video, he knew it was dangerous but did it anyway!!

i am fully wfp but have to sometimes use ladders, the last time was at a commercial building when ladders had to be used to clean internal windows which were high up, i used a ladderm8trix at the base on the carpet so i knew it wasnt going to slip, there is no other way that these windows can be cleaned except with a ladder, i feel safe climbing the ladder i dont take risks,

previous to this is a large school which has lots of internal windows which i clean from a ladder, there is no other way to clean them, i make sure the ladder is not going to slip and is positioned correctly,

this is a far cry away from knowing that you are doing something dangerously but doing it anyway which is what the video is all about, it doesnt apply just to ladders but other situations, scaffolders etc

it is all down to the end user, in certain situations using a ladder is safe and practical, that is the only time i will use one.

[PureClean Window Cleaning Ltd]

Thanks for posting.

[Mike #1]

Everybody has a lapse when using ladders and this is what causes accidents and falls .

Watched the whole video really hit home i came very very close to been in a wheelchair after breaking my back in 2 places and crushing one of my vertabrae by 70% , falling from a ladder when trad and when you come that close it never leaves you .

Almost  every time a see someone in a wheelchair i think how lucky i am that it is not me . Mike