[John Geurkink]

But your carpet won't actually be clean, most of the dirt will still be there....it will only look clean
Seems you have fallen for the party line Mr. Halliday.. LOL

Your lack of understanding in this surprises me. If you think your HWE gets the soil out, then you are living in Utopia.
NOBODY removes all the soil from a gravity fed medium like carpets.

Do you even understand HOW LM or OP encap removes soils?
If so please explain.

I love these debates with the fringe elements, it's fascinating how they believe with such cult fervour that LM methods actually clean carpets, when we all know that they don't,
Fringe elements...LOL that is a good one, if you KNOW they don't then I dare say you don't know too much about LM methods.
Your blanket statements are arrogant to a huge number of people who use not only LM or OP who use it  a little or a lot.

39 Years I have listened to this stuff, and now my favorite sales are to HWE guys, we SELL it for commercial, but once they get to know us we SUGGEST they try it on domestic carpets... funny how most Trinity CM buyers soon either retire or have very limited use of there TM's.

But I understand, if that is what you know, that is what you believe, however that doesn't make it SO!

Several mills are not specific, some say NO to OP, but THEIR problem is, a claim made against OP must be proven, I know of no claims won against OP to date, the lower orbit machines can TIP BLOOM if the operator doesn't know what he is doing, however the newer large orbit machines do not tip bloom at all.

When I have I will tell you of when I went to Shaw with my machines and how that worked out... it is an eye opener.

[Mike Halliday]

John I am so glad you came a long

On the video you posted you say at approx 30secs  you say "Next you see us clean with a tile & grout brush..... as you can see the results are simply  amazing"

Can you explain whn using a tile & grout brush (that is a pure scrubbing implement) where the dirt has gone? and has the brush removed any dirt? If this brush has not removed any dirt how can you say it has cleaned the carpet, let alone given 'simply amazing ' results?

The truth of this matter is I want to be proven wrong, I want to be educated, you obviously are an expert on your chosen system ( and I say that with no sarcasm intended)

my only problem with LM is its ability to remove dirt from a deep pile carpet which has a depth of pile that a bonnet cannot touch, so has no  way of transferring dirt from the carpet onto the bonnet. How does a bonnet remove the dirt from deep down in the carpet pile ?

[John Geurkink]

Thank you for that straight forward question Mike.

The restaurant video is straight encap, so what are we doing?
First off the removing of soil in straight encap is done by the product, NOT the machine, the machine can only prepare the carpet to be cleaned.
For example, we all know 79% of soil is particulate that is vacuumed up, the rest is stuck to the fibers.
So what can LM do to remove that soil?
We use the encap solution along with extreme agitation to strip the stickies and soils from the carpet.
Then because we have "sloshed" this product at super high speed through all the fibers and stripped them, now we let it dry.
Once dried, the fibers are coated as to insure no wickbacks, plus the soils and stickies are not coated with a polymer, a good polymer will
now dry, crystalized and then the stickies and soil have also become "particulate" soils, again, easily removed by vacuuming.

Another debate is Deep pile carpet, if you knew how much moisture was moving at incredible rates of "sloshing" for lack of a better word through the fibers, you will understand we don't so much spray the carpet as much as we do keep enough  moisture in the pad itself.  You can NOT miss stripping the fibers when using this much agitation and moisture together. That is another reason many will tell you, either encap works or it doesn't the idea of  it only working on commercial carpets is a misnomer of not understanding what is happening under the machine when it is over the carpet. You don't move anymore water through the carpet with HWE than you do with LM, the difference is, with LM you have the added agitation PLUS that moisture is sloshing side to side at high speed whipping through all the carpet fibers. The carpet dries in an hour or less because we keep the moisture  MOVING along with the pad.

There is not that much difference (excluding the agitation) to what is going on between the wand  and the carpet as there is between the pad and the carpet.
Hope this helps.

More cleaning pics:
http://trinityrenewalsystems.com/videos/youtube-videos/?tubepress_page=2

[Paul Moss]

Then because we have "sloshed" this product at super high speed through all the fibers and stripped them, now we let it dry.
Once dried, the fibers are coated as to insure no wickbacks, plus the soils and stickies are not coated with a polymer, a good polymer will
now dry, crystalized and then the stickies and soil have also become "particulate" soils, again, easily removed by vacuuming

But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?

[Paul Moss]

Hector I would, I often explain the downside to HWE I find it stop complaints

I tell them I will do my best to get out as much dirt as possible,

I have a sprayborg, a rotory, an orbital challenger/lowboy, Host and VS dry foam machines, I would love to be able to use these machine as my only system and in the past have tried but they do nt give the quality of clean I want,  sometimes they did but not all the time

On domestics HWE  constantly  removes more dirt than L/M if it didn't I wouldn't use it

Totally agree with that. I ve several systems in place and use what is best for the given situation, based on experience and skill ( also time and cost) and get the end result required by the customer.


NOT ONE SYSTEM WILL EVER DO ALL........

[John Geurkink]

But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?
To groom the carpet, the vacuuming is not required immediately after the cleaning, once particulate, the soil can be removed
in the regular vacuuming rotation.

On domestics HWE  constantly  removes more dirt than L/M if it didn't I wouldn't use it

Proof of that?

I chuckle at the debate of who gets out more, if one can make the carpet look cleaner, last longer, kill off any bacteria or viri and please the customer to the point they never look elsewhere, what exactly is the problem?

I have gone directly to TM manufactures and cleaned after their BEST shot, and removed plenty more soil... EVERYTIME, not just once in a while, HOWEVER, they can do the same after me, and then again me after that and on and on.

The very idea that you are totally cleaning a gravity fed medium is  a joke and a poor one at that.

That fallacy is promoted by the TM manufactures themselves and quite frankly it is BS, not only BS but so very easy to PROVE to be BS.
I have found far too many cleaners over the years that accept what they have been taught instead if INSPECTING their own work for themselves.

[Mike Halliday]

The problem we have here is everything is open to lies and exqgeration,

when you say you have been  to truckmount  manufactuers and every time you have cleaned after a TM you have removed plenty more soil EVERTIME.

I have followed LM  operators and once they have finished I removed the carpet and weighed it then cleaned it my self. The carpet in all cases wieghed at least 17.897% less after I had cleaned it, this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt my system removes more dirt.

how can you argue against my proof? unless you are going to blatantly accuse me of lying.

All we can go on is the post so far from members who have started using LM then had to change to the TM & RX20 to achieve acceptable result, or we're they lying?

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

The cleanliness of a carpet is partlysubjective which allows any number of manufacturers of machines and chemicals to make whatever claims they wish.

To test properly would be very difficult, criteria would have to be agreed and it would be expensive.

Common sense woulsd suggest HWE removes more soil, but then common sense said the world was square once!

Cheers

Doug

[Peter Sweeney]

Haha, Well done Sir Isaac, genius (yes thats you Doug, i know how modest you are)

Pete

Great debate by the way with some real expert talkers (present company accepted of course 

[rycalshaw]

thanks for the replies everyone but a simple yes or no would,ve done..

[Simon Gerrard]

But John on your first video the guys are all vaccing wet/damp carpets.... Why?
To groom the carpet, the vacuuming is not required immediately after the cleaning, once particulate, the soil can be removed
in the regular vacuuming rotation.

So you're not actually taking ANYTHING out of the carpet in the so called cleaning process, what a joke.
The restaurant we cleaned the other day with a Titan 875 and RX20 had huge grease build ups in the traffic lanes to the point where the tiles were choked with grease. The dirt that came out of it was black and you're trying to tell us all of that technology and power is unnecessary because had we gone over it with a Trinity (that's what I assume you're trying to sell us) and an encap solution the same level of dirt would simply disappear and get encapsulated to then await the next vaccing by the in house cleaner, most of whom only have a Henry.
Next you'll be trying to tell us that Elvis is alive and kicking and working undercover in Moscow for the CIA posing as a Macedonian fish fillet-er.

Simon

[Peter Sweeney]

Simon, you actually just filled me with joy reading that, the ending was sublime and I'm still laughing

[Peter Sweeney]

and that was geuine as I'm sure the alternative crossed your mind

[Simon Gerrard]

It did, but - I'm glad it didn't.
I think in our case bygones need to be bygones

Simon

[Peter Sweeney]

absolutely 

[Paul Moss]

  is this the same Pete Sweeney

[*Hector*]

Next you'll be trying to tell us that Elvis is alive and kicking and working undercover in Moscow for the CIA posing as a Macedonian fish fillet-er.

Simon

That is covered by the official secrets act Simon..........

You will have your collar felt in the next few days...  

I look forward to watching it happen  

[Peter Sweeney]

We killed this thread with our mills & Boon ending Simon don't you think 

[Simon Gerrard]

Think so, darling....kiss kiss

[Paul Moss]

Ok now im gonna be sick