[mattstanley]

The only info I can get is that the HSE are updating their safe working practice guidelines for window cleaners in line with the TWAHD regs of last April - as far as I'm aware, we're not getting new regs, but I may be wrong.

[Dominic]

Cheers for response.

Don't get me wrong I definitely know WFP is better all round in my opinion. And Squeeky don't think I didn't do my research. I also loved the ladders till HSE threw a spanner in the works.

I think the main thing that annoys me is that there are still trads out their completely ignoring what's going on. I've spent the cash yet matey is getting a free ride and being able to compete with me without the overheads.

Surely every Trad doesn't do a risk assessment on every residential house he cleans and then take the correct steps to ensure safe use of ladders ( if he does then I'll take it all back). I did it for long enough to know that you just fly round as quick as poss with as little expense as poss.

Maybe you'll realise Squeeky if you decide to change over yourself.

Try not to take offense just telling you how it is in my eyes.

I've been round my round about three times now and on the whole every thing is rosy and earning alot more in a lot less time. But I have lost a few and had to convince many so like I said before it would be great if everyone just accepted that this is the law and that's it. Wishfull thinking I suppose.

cheers Dom

[dish]

I was going to add.

I can't see how the HSE can ever ban the use of ladders.  There are just too many jobs that require the use of ladders, commercially and domestically, and there are just no other suitable access options. For short jobs it is not practical to erect scaffolding, use mewps, rig up bolts for rope access etc. etc...

I do appreciate the benefits of wfp's which is why I am looking at getting one myself.

What I don't appreciate is all the window cleaners who have been telling customers that HSE has banned the use of ladders and window cleaners who use ladders are breaking the law...

[windows_chepstow]

Mattstanley quote:

Insert Quote  
I don't doubt it works, but do the customers see you doing it?  Mine would wonder what I was doing

Matt, you're in the 'interested but frightened category' of window cleaner who wants to convert to WFP.

Ignore the regs.  Who cares?  They're not policed anyway; until you have an accident at least.

If you want to dip your toe into the WFP world, get a Shurflo back-pack.  Don't listen to anyone else.  Shurflo back-pack at £250 tops, cheaper from e-bay (£160).

With all the other stuff it should amount to around £600 in total.  Within two months, you'll have paid for your expenditure and from 'clean four', you'll be flying round and each month your purchase will be repeatedly paying for itself.

Just start out doing 'tops only' and use David of St Ives's WFP explanation letter for your customers.  (In the documents to upload section).  I swear I have only lost one customer out of 350(ish) due to WFP, and the one I lost was not due to shoddy work-man-ship.

Not only will you be cleaning faster, but you can work for longer.  Six hours of hard ladder work used to 'knacker' me.  But I can work eight hours, still tired, but not bolloxed! I'm sure you know what I mean.

[simbo]

this has always bothered me, i am just building my own trolly now, but do not plan on using on all my work just the ones that are a little dangerous.I charge good rate now but customers ok as i spend around half hour doing a good job, if i started doing it in 10 mins i think nearly all would get a bit anoyed, so just the scary stuff for me and will go out of my way to target that sort of work and see how things go.
I really enjoy using ladders most of the time but wfp does have a place i am sure
as somebody else said a lot of water gets wasted just producing the water, still good though as can target 3 4 storey work soon which i do not touch at the mo
cheers all simb0

[Moderator David@stives]

This is what i posted a few days ago,how you interperate is up to you also read this link

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15945.0

The Work at Height Regulations (WAHR), which came into effect in April (2005), incorporate four principles that employers have to follow.

They must try to avoid the risk occurring in the first place by finding different ways of working, whenever possible.

If working at height is unavoidable, measures must be taken to prevent falls taking place and, if they do occur, to reduce the consequences.

The fourth principle requires employers to prefer collective protection, such as guard-rails, rather than personal protection, such as safety harnesses.

When staff have to work above the ground, their employers have to make sure the work is planned, supervised and carried out in a safe manner.

[windows_chepstow]

David,

Citing 'The Law', is all well and good, but who really cares?  It's not being policed as far as I know.  So unless you have an accident, you've not got much to worry about.

I doubt there's many here who've honestly converted to WFP because of 'The Law'.

We're converting - in droves - because it's easier, quicker, makes more money, and is safer, which is a by-product for me.

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh

Just giving valuable information.

I am not citing the law.

Dave   

[rosskesava]

If a risk assessment is done first and a method statement done (nothing over complex is needed), generally, cleaning windows with ladders is perfectly ok.

There is a bit more to it than that and a bit of paper work needed in a folder and an awareness of this and that but .....

I had stopped posting on this but here we are again.

I went to the extent of getting a H & S officer to visit us while working whilst using ladders on a semi. He was completely happy we were acting within the news regs. He did a site survey, spoke to each of us about how we work, gave us some good advice and went away quite happy about how we were working.

I'm in fear of stirring up a can of worms but those who shout loudest about WAHL's are those who have a vested interest in WFP and the words 'banned' and so on get used to great effect.

If anyone who cleans windows using ladders is worried about the regulations, don't go by what I've written here, phone the H & S people or do as I did, contact them via their website. They are suprisingly helpfull .

Cheers

I've added this afterwards - wfp has increased our profits by about 40% and not forgetting it is safer but for some jobs, wfp is either impracticle or slower or to messy.

[dai]

Tosh, your spot on. My customers after 5 months love the WFP. I lost 3 in total and have gained loads of new ones.
Having been going up ladders every day for 12 years, and perfectly happy to do so, I now hate getting them off the van. I can get through the work much faster now.
The speed wasn't there to start with, but as my confidence in the system grew I found the speed just increased.
To be perfectly honest and a little selfish, I don't want to see a mass exodus to WFP. I want to press home the advantage I have over traditional cleaning first.
As to the original post with regards to health and safety, It's what I have been saying from the start and have posted several times on here. If you haven't got WFP there is no safer alternative way of working. The law by definition applies to us all. Dai

[rosskesava]

Hi Dai

The law by definition applies to us all. Dai

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

Cheers

[steve k]

Don`t worry about waste water being environmentally UNfriendly...it all goes back into the rainwater drains so is recycled back into our  taps at some point!!

[wightsurf]

Hi all ,i live down south and i got talking to my local school head teacher,she said
that they have been informed that they where not to allow the care taker to clean windows with a ladder anymore!!!!
This made my mind up to invest in this as there is in my view a hole thats about to open in the market ,as companys will not want to take the risk.
After all this country is going the same way as the states ,sue any one for any thing and the companys just won't want to take the chance , even if you can use a ladder the risk is there 
they will go for wfp it's the safe option


Martin

[rosskesava]

as companys will not want to take the risk.

Carry on believing that.

sue any one for any thing

That is exactly how it works.

I'm sorry to sound sarcastic and I don't mean to sound rude but this is the media and the press headline grabbing.

It's actually not like that in reality.

even if you can use a ladder the risk is there they will go for wfp it's the safe option

Sorry, that has not been my experience.

[wightsurf]

It seems you pay for not using wfp by means of the following,
what i said earlyer is something i have came across.After spending a lot of years in the building trade and how that has changed with the use of ladders i do think
that health and safety will become a more of a issue with the use of ladders.



Quote from national asscosiation window cleaners


Can I use ladders at all?

No. Going up a ladder just once puts you at risk of an accident. We know of one window cleaner who had a serious accident the day before his new wfp system arrived.

Are we criticising traditional window cleaners?

Of course not. The facts and the insurance premiums reflect the risks of using ladders.

[windows_chepstow]

Ian Greenwood said (he's the head-working-at-heights-honcho) that 'ladders are not illegal, but window cleaners should consider the alternatives first'.

That means that ladders can be used in some circumstances, under certain restricted conditions.   Ladders should be tied off and be used in conjuction with a ladder stabilisation device.

I once tried arguing that this directive had no real effect on ladder users, with Philip Hanson (editor of PWCA magazine and ex moderator here) and lost on every point.  He backed up his argument by quotes from the regulation. 

It did enhance my understanding of the rules.

Anyway, the working at height directive that Ian Greenwood oversaw states that the principle of the directive is that if a job can be done from the ground, then that's how it should be done.  Full Stop.

At the end of the day, whose going to stop you using ladders?  No-one.  Maybe the odd customer whose HSE savvy may drop you in favour of a WFP user!  Many facility managers don't have a clue regarding the working at heights directive either.

Regardless of all this regulation; go on, dip your toe in the WFP world.  Get a Shurflo back-pack and start off doing 'tops only'.

You don't need to spend £1000.  About £500 or £600 will get you kitted out.  Send me an e-mail - or ask in a post - and I'll tell you how to get kitted out.

Why?

This forums members have helped me no-end in my new business.  I've been window cleaning for three-years now, and I think I've a better business than some window cleaners I know who've been going for twenty years, who're still using ladders.

I'm not on commision from Shurflo!

[dai]

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

True; If the people charged with enforcing it, ever get round to applying it. They can't though can they? Nobody, including them seem to have a clear definition of what it is.
Dai

[Filllllll]

I slipped over on wet decking after using my WFP.Is that healthy?Better than the ladder slipping on it ,or on gravel,or treading on slippery pitched roofs of which I have many.
I'm on my second time round with WFP working from box trailer system and freedom trolly for the difficult to access.
Customers  generally have taken well to it;lost just a few but after twenty years up a ladder I do feel alot happier at ground level.
Was quite an investment but have found costs are more than covered by extra work from doing conservatory roofs and extra windows at exta cost previously inaccesible.Also it certainly speeds things up.More time for the familly too!
N.B. Takes a bit of time to develop technique etc. but it does get together in the end.

[gaza]

tosh THE  WFP GURU:HOW MANY YEARS WFPOLING? sorry months
me had qne for 4 yrs,how time has changed,4 yrs ago try and convert peeps to wfp was a nightmare.
 now Ive walked onto 3 brand new building sites/3 story houses charge £38 squid for 12 windows cus the building company wont have people working of ladders on site,from there got 3 out of 3 houses on 1 site thats been released @ £8 for 12 windows,and 1 out of 3 at another site, on another site trad wc =1 house me wfp= 4 with 2 watching and the trad canvassed before me

READ ON SQUEEKY AND THE OTHER LUDITES,and yes I do still use ladders{getting less and less}

wissh I lived near squeeky I would tie him to the end of my pole sso he could have a close look at the results before he commented on wfp.plus bash his head on the brick work a little

squeeky Im not having a dig but you ort to get out more wake up and smell the coffee 



 GAZA

[rosskesava]

Philip Hanson is skilled in these issues. He is skilled in how to present them. He also has business interests into how wfp should be presented.

I am not critisizing the bloke in away way but business is business and his business is wfp.

Just get the facts direct from the H & S direct and go by what they say instead.

Slipping over on wet decking being used as an example as opposed to falling from a ladder is not really valid. What is valid is the fact that you cannot fall from a ladder if the job is being done with wfp.

Somehow now, deaths and injuries from ladder are common place and happen everytime someone goes up a ladder or so it seems.

I have never ever not once disputed the safety of wfp as opposed to using a ladder. Not ever and not once.

My point was that ladders are not banned. They are not illegal or anything else.

Without sounding rude, it's best to find out what the law is first from those who enforce it.

True; If the people charged with enforcing it, ever get round to applying it.

On what basis do you say that? What is the source of your information? How can you back that fact up? Who have you got written statements from? What statistics have you got to support that and who compiled them? Were those facts industry standard surveys? What were the sampling rates and so on?

Also, IF a job can be done from the ground then it should be done so. Again define 'can be done from the ground'? That could mean just getting a hose and spraying water and saying that is the job done. It's a question of defining what is the job to be done and to what standard and what standard the customer expects according to what is the accepted existing standard.

I go back to my original point of ask the H & S. It's simple. It's so straight forwards that I am amazed that more have not done that already and if you are not happy that person knows about the WAHL's, then go further up the H & S ladder untill you get an answer from someone who is an authority.

Apart from that - I'll never ever go up a 3 extention ladder again whether it's legal or not. I'll go up a 2 extention A frame only if I'm happy about it. any doubt and I won't. My ladder days in that sense are over.

Cheers