[AuRavelling79]

Would anybody show me where it is the THE LAW as quoted in PUWER 98 that you have to have a certificate to say you are trained to operate as a self employed wfp operator?

(For Spruce: this would be like being told you have to have an MOT or a Driving License - ie the law of the land; something you must possess or that the police would arrest you for as it is illegal to operate certain vehicles without one)

The reason I ask is that it was asserted on this forum by a respected  (by forum admin and others) source that one should or that one would be operating illegally.

I have looked in PUWER 98 and I have asked four times now and not received an answer. Does anybody know?

I would not wish to break the law. Please help.

To forum admin: I know a revenue stream is important to you; I sincerely need an answer to this question and I hope your need for revenue does not influence your decision as to whether to lock this thread, censure me or ban me.

[stuart mc]

Gold when I employed a lad, the H&S guy at the council asked me who would be his competent trainer, I said me, he said not being rude but what deems you competent, I told him my background and how I kept up to date with H&S online etc, and said that is fine, you are obviously competent.

now if the H&S bloke is wrong I would also like to know about it.

[AuRavelling79]

Gold when I employed a lad, the H&S guy at the council asked me who would be his competent trainer, I said me, he said not being rude but what deems you competent, I told him my background and how I kept up to date with H&S online etc, and said that is fine, you are obviously competent.

now if the H&S bloke is wrong I would also like to know about it.

Exactly my point stuart m ... exactly my point.

[elite mike]

not sure if this helps malc

copied from there website

Q: What is the definition of a Competent Person?
A: Legislation itself does not prescribe what attributes a competent person must have, however, the health and safety executive (HSE) offers some guidance in various publications.

A Competent Person can be defined as “A person who has such appropriate practical and theoretical knowledge and experience of the equipment to be thoroughly examined or inspected as will enable them to detect defects or weaknesses and to assess their importance in relation to the safety and continued use of the equipment".

A competent person will normally be from an outside independent organisation that has sufficient training and experience in examination and inspection of equipment.

[Andrew Willis]

Would anybody show me where it is the THE LAW as quoted in PUWER 98 that you have to have a certificate to say you are trained to operate as a self employed wfp operator?

(For Spruce: this would be like being told you have to have an MOT or a Driving License - ie the law of the land; something you must possess or that the police would arrest you for as it is illegal to operate certain vehicles without one)

The reason I ask is that it was asserted on this forum by a respected  (by forum admin and others) source that one should or that one would be operating illegally.

I have looked in PUWER 98 and I have asked four times now and not received an answer. Does anybody know?

I would not wish to break the law. Please help.

To forum admin: I know a revenue stream is important to you; I sincerely need an answer to this question and I hope your need for revenue does not influence your decision as to whether to lock this thread, censure me or ban me.

Hi it can be frustrating for me
hope this helps
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2306/regulation/9/made

PUWER 1998
Within Reg 9  

9.—(1) Every employer shall ensure that all persons who use work equipment have received adequate training for purposes of health and safety, including training in the methods which may be adopted when using the work equipment, any risks which such use may entail and precautions to be taken.

(2) Every employer shall ensure that any of his employees who supervises or manages the use of work equipment has received adequate training for purposes of health and safety, including training in the methods which may be adopted when using the work equipment, any risks which such use may entail and precautions to be taken.

Your then have to go to the front of the legislation to Application  

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2306/regulation/3/made

Application

3.—(1) These Regulations shall apply—

(a)in Great Britain; and
(b)outside Great Britain as sections 1 to 59 and 80 to 82 of the 1974 Act apply by virtue of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Application outside Great Britain) Order 1995(1) (“the 1995 Order”).
(2) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer in respect of work equipment shall apply to such equipment provided for use or used by an employee of his at work.

(3) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall also apply—

(a)to a self-employed person, in respect of work equipment he uses at work;
(b)subject to paragraph (5), to a person who has control to any extent of—
(i)work equipment;
(ii)a person at work who uses or supervises or manages the use of work equipment; or
(iii)the way in which work equipment is used at work,and to the extent of his control.


Over the weekend I would have liked to answer a lot of the posts but was up to my eyes in a family issue
also flat out this week
But I am sitting down with Trevor Perry next week and will address a lot of the issues and then let Trevor come on as an unbiased view

I am keen to hold a workshop day
No cost invite any CIUP forum user to come along

I also plan to address issues with FWC
and get a meeting with the HSE EHO and legal representation to hammer out the points

Hope this helps

Regards


Andy

[Steve Sed]

Would this include H&S training for people who use pencil sharpeners? Computers? Clipboards? Brooms? Mops? Or is it really the case that PUWER relates to people who use power tools whose dangers are self evident if they are not deployed safely.

[stuart mc]

read andrews reply thank you, I conclude from that, that no written certificate is required as I thought and experienced, it would be helpful though but not required, it also helps to keep written record of what training any employee receives as I did when I employed.

End of subject for me thank you

[AuRavelling79]

read andrews reply thank you, I conclude from that, that no written certificate is required as I thought and experienced, it would be helpful though but not required, it also helps to keep written record of what training any employee receives as I did when I employed.

End of subject for me thank you

Agreed.

Andrew, that answers the point - you do not specifically need a certificate as was implied in your early post. Sorry you were bogged down with things on the weekend.

[Andrew Willis]

read andrews reply thank you, I conclude from that, that no written certificate is required as I thought and experienced, it would be helpful though but not required, it also helps to keep written record of what training any employee receives as I did when I employed.

End of subject for me thank you

Agreed.

Andrew, that answers the point - you do not specifically need a certificate as was implied in your early post. Sorry you were bogged down with things on the weekend.

The issue really is trained
Most training ends with proof/certification
In the event you get an issue, accident, problem, any judge will drill this down in the following way

The onus will be on you to provide evidence of competency
Have you been trained
You insurance company may do the same !
May be worth checking your policy or ring your insurers ask them how they define 

Lets say a CIUP forum says my brother trained me
Judge just asks
How
Whats his experience
Experience in training
What was included in the training
Basically the Syllabus
Then normally proof you understood what was being taught
could be multi choice questions etc
All good training companies work in this manner
Theres got to be a logic behind it ?

This new post is a good example of the forum and a drive for me to comment on issues
The information is selective
Open for interpretation

Normally in a good course you address issues and information in a controlled way
open up for questioning
review information again to make sure the information is clear

You see I felt my post above was clear on the need for training
certification is proof

Before the Trolls jump all over this :

I am really happy I cover all the above during our normal Workshops, or during this workshop we aim to put together for any CIUP user, I'll try and arrange December 

I want to close off for rest of the week as I have a massive amount of work being spent on a new Working at Height City and Guilds course and qualification (level 3) for supervisors and managers
before the Trolls get on it, no its not funded 

Regards Andy   

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

A few questions if I may.

Why would you not want to gain a qualification (for free in most cases) that will help with the day to day health and safety of yourself and others?

In a previous job I had to do a risk assesment and produce method statements for the use of a hose pipe, brush, and even a wheel barrow. Do you think this is over the top?

The whole point of Health and Safety is to protect YOU and others that work with you or around you.

If someone has decided to HELP us window cleaners with a training system that WILL help us all, then they should be thanked and not shot at.
 
IMO the fact that people are making money out of this training is the cause of a lot of negative comments.

I say good on you and keep it up.

[p1w1]

A few questions if I may.

Why would you not want to gain a qualification (for free in most cases) that will help with the day to day health and safety of yourself and others?

In a previous job I had to do a risk assesment and produce method statements for the use of a hose pipe, brush, and even a wheel barrow. Do you think this is over the top?

The whole point of Health and Safety is to protect YOU and others that work with you or around you.

If someone has decided to HELP us window cleaners with a training system that WILL help us all, then they should be thanked and not shot at.
 
IMO the fact that people are making money out of this training is the cause of a lot of negative comments.

I say good on you and keep it up.

Well said mate

[SunShineCleaning]

read andrews reply thank you, I conclude from that, that no written certificate is required as I thought and experienced, it would be helpful though but not required, it also helps to keep written record of what training any employee receives as I did when I employed.

End of subject for me thank you

Agreed.

Andrew, that answers the point - you do not specifically need a certificate as was implied in your early post. Sorry you were bogged down with things on the weekend.

Maybe you don't then, however, if you employ surely it would be easier to put them on a course than to go through the process of self training and hope that you have enough 'evidence' in the case of an accident?

[Steve Sed]

 
IMO the fact that people are making money out of this training is the cause of a lot of negative comments.

You are right. It is just your opinion.

What annoyed me was stating that we should not clean windows over flat roofs, then when asked why, he attempted to ridicule the question and imply it is an example of an ignorant window cleaner.

[stuart mc]

read andrews reply thank you, I conclude from that, that no written certificate is required as I thought and experienced, it would be helpful though but not required, it also helps to keep written record of what training any employee receives as I did when I employed.

End of subject for me thank you

Agreed.

Andrew, that answers the point - you do not specifically need a certificate as was implied in your early post. Sorry you were bogged down with things on the weekend.

Maybe you don't then, however, if you employ surely it would be easier to put them on a course than to go through the process of self training and hope that you have enough 'evidence' in the case of an accident?

I would agree if I didn't have a background in training or some other life experiences, but I do, so I am happy I could answer a judge of my competence.

I have nothing against Andrew or his course and I would gladly do it

[gewindows]

Personally I'm of the opinion the criticisms are coming from those who are sole traders, whereas if you are employing your be close to idiotic not to seriously co sided H&S training for your staff to protect yourself should an accident occur. Sole-traders with no training is fine but not when you employ. You are effectively uninsured if that's the case.

[stuart mc]

A few questions if I may.

Why would you not want to gain a qualification (for free in most cases) that will help with the day to day health and safety of yourself and others?
no problem with that at all
In a previous job I had to do a risk assesment and produce method statements for the use of a hose pipe, brush, and even a wheel barrow. Do you think this is over the top?
so you know how to do a risk assessment and method statement and were shown how to do it, means you have good experience and are capable of carrying that on into your current job, just out of interest did anyone train you how to use a brush, hose pipe or wheel barrow, as Andrew is suggesting they should have, and you should have a certificate proving so, because if the judge say how did you know how to use the brush, and you reply I watched my mum for many years using one, he will ask what qualification your mum had

The whole point of Health and Safety is to protect YOU and others that work with you or around you.

If someone has decided to HELP us window cleaners with a training system that WILL help us all, then they should be thanked and not shot at.
 
IMO the fact that people are making money out of this training is the cause of a lot of negative comments.
no problem with above three sentences
I say good on you and keep it up.
agree

I don't know who you were asking but I will try

I know I am being pedantic but do you get my point here

again I am not having a go at andrew, merely how I can look at regs and think one way, and andrew can look at the think another way, none of us wrong 

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

Yes i was shown how to use the brush, hose pipe and wheel barrow. I then signed and dated along with the training officer and shift supervisor. I kept a copy and a copy went on file.

The company employing me at the time had a legal obligation to make sure I was trained.
I could bore you with a list of other day to day common sense items we had to be 'trained' to use.

I had come from driving 18 tonne front loading shovels too been trained on how to use a sweeping brush.

Did we all laugh behind the trainers back thinking it was totally silly? Yes.

Did we have to be trained and sign all relevant forms? Yes

If we had not been trained and recorded that training would the company have been covered in a court of law should someone of been hurt in an accident? NO

Think carefully about your training. I have and will be investing my time in the Impact 43 training course.

 
 

[stuart mc]

Yes i was shown how to use the brush, hose pipe and wheel barrow. I then signed and dated along with the training officer and shift supervisor. I kept a copy and a copy went on file.

The company employing me at the time had a legal obligation to make sure I was trained.
I could bore you with a list of other day to day common sense items we had to be 'trained' to use.

I had come from driving 18 tonne front loading shovels too been trained on how to use a sweeping brush.

Did we all laugh behind the trainers back thinking it was totally silly? Yes.

Did we have to be trained and sign all relevant forms? Yes

If we had not been trained and recorded that training would the company have been covered in a court of law should someone of been hurt in an accident? NO

Think carefully about your training. I have and will be investing my time in the Impact 43 training course.

 
 

right here is the crux of it though, what training did the training officer have in the use of a brush? did he do a course on using a brush and was he certified, I think not, you just took him at his word

[gewindows]

And that is exactly what insurance companies will do.

Training, so far as we are concerned, however imbecilic, idiotic, dumb, stupid or downright pathetic essentially is for the employers benefit to cover his back. It is there to simply show, it is the evidence, that as an employer, you have made certain efforts, that are deemed the correct ones, to hel ensure your workers safety. You've done what can be reasonably expected of you. Everyone knows training won't stop accidents. Everyone knows common sense is the best tool to avoid accidents. But insurance companies want evidence and this is how they get it. That is how it is. Bleating on here about it won't do, change, help or alter anything.


Sole-traders feel free to ignore the above post, although 90% of you are more than likely to retain the right to criticise. Make sure you're wearing a hard hat if you do :-)

[Steve Sed]

And that is exactly what insurance companies will do.

Training, so far as we are concerned, however imbecilic, idiotic, dumb, stupid or downright pathetic essentially is for the employers benefit to cover his back. It is there to simply show, it is the evidence, that as an employer, you have made certain efforts, that are deemed the correct ones, to hel ensure your workers safety. You've done what can be reasonably expected of you. Everyone knows training won't stop accidents. Everyone knows common sense is the best tool to avoid accidents. But insurance companies want evidence and this is how they get it. That is how it is. Bleating on here about it won't do, change, help or alter anything.


Sole-traders feel free to ignore the above post, although 90% of you are more than likely to retain the right to criticise. Make sure you're wearing a hard hat if you do :-)

But that isn't what these threads are about. They are about poor training and advice. To remind you:

Not working on flat roofs.
Establishing a cordon around a water fed pole to the height of the pole.

Surely if the issue is about training, it should be about showing how to do things safely, not just saying don't do them.