[Perfect Windows]

we do a 4 storey hotel and always courdon off the area last year doing some flats the gooseneck snapped
and the brush came down, which may not have killed any1 but would/could have caused a serious head injury

Then your risk assessment is missing an equipment check.

Vin

[Andrew Willis]

Well, finally we have an answer from the illustrius Andy Willis.

He thinks that if you don't courdon off the area when using poles, then you're in breach of the work at height regulations.  And this is because there is a risk of falling poles.

Why is this important?  Because it calls into question whether Andy Willis and his crew really do know what they're on about when it comes to using waterfed poles and what is 'reasonably practicable'.  It also tells us whether he is the window cleaner's friend or foe.

The work at height regs say that:

"Every employer shall, where necessary to prevent injury to any person, take suitable and sufficient steps to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, the fall of any material or object."

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/10/made )

So, the question really is, is it "reasonably practicable" to courdon off an area when using poles?

To me the answer is totally obvious!  Of course it isn't, and anyone who actually uses poles for window cleaning knows that. 

Is courdoning off an area an appropriate response to the risk involved? 

OBVIOUSLY NO!

Becuase I've never heard of anyone being injured by falling poles, and I would argue that the risk is minimal, and does not justify such a drastic measure of courdoning off.  Also, if this were such a risk that it needed courdoning off, then the same would be true of extended ladders.

To put it bluntly, Andy Willis, in my opinion you are talking rubbish.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=161090.0;all

[Andrew Willis]

Well, finally we have an answer from the illustrius Andy Willis.

He thinks that if you don't courdon off the area when using poles, then you're in breach of the work at height regulations.  And this is because there is a risk of falling poles.

Why is this important?  Because it calls into question whether Andy Willis and his crew really do know what they're on about when it comes to using waterfed poles and what is 'reasonably practicable'.  It also tells us whether he is the window cleaner's friend or foe.

The work at height regs say that:

"Every employer shall, where necessary to prevent injury to any person, take suitable and sufficient steps to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, the fall of any material or object."

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/10/made )

So, the question really is, is it "reasonably practicable" to courdon off an area when using poles?

To me the answer is totally obvious!  Of course it isn't, and anyone who actually uses poles for window cleaning knows that. 

Is courdoning off an area an appropriate response to the risk involved? 

OBVIOUSLY NO!

Becuase I've never heard of anyone being injured by falling poles, and I would argue that the risk is minimal, and does not justify such a drastic measure of courdoning off.  Also, if this were such a risk that it needed courdoning off, then the same would be true of extended ladders.

To put it bluntly, Andy Willis, in my opinion you are talking rubbish.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=161090.0;all

All posters

If you would like to choose a central location to get together I will give up a day and thoroughly address this issue
No pay
No funding
My time free
if you want to give up yours,

See there was no uptake on this, that would take effort

[Window Washers]

Anyone who has been on one of Andrews Impact 43 courses remembers the first sentance he says, how much is your life worth ? and as the law says so far as reasonably practicle, the price of a few cones and a few minutes a day cordoning of areas is worth it, and any judge will support it.

whats the value of you or your employees or the publics lives............. most sensible people will agree PRICELESS

idealrob

Why do people who have been on the course feel the need to defend the course and then make statements like this ?

why do you feel the need to talk about a course that you have not been on and clearly know very little about James, can you not get the funding for it is as you seem to have a Big chip on your shoulder about it. I would bet you money you would learn something new that would help you that is of course if you don't know everything already.  Be interested to know the reel reason your trolling threads in it

Getting tetchy now eh Mr Washers ( is that your real name ? ) , i wonder if it has anything to do with me asking about your ' vested interest ' in these topics ?

not at all tetchy James you really don't affect mind mindset I find it rather amusing if I'm honest, just to clear it up for you my name is Ian Wicks my business is called Window Washers, if you look in my profile you would see a link to my site. I was simply asking you a question ( i guess that you may of overlooked this) could you answer that for me.
I have nothing to hide if at all you bothered me I simpley would ignor your posts
I come on here to help and learn not to try to pick argument as that would make me a very sad person indeed with something missing in my life.

Now try and be nice and answer the question James

[Dave Willis]

Well, finally we have an answer from the illustrius Andy Willis.

He thinks that if you don't courdon off the area when using poles, then you're in breach of the work at height regulations.  And this is because there is a risk of falling poles.

Why is this important?  Because it calls into question whether Andy Willis and his crew really do know what they're on about when it comes to using waterfed poles and what is 'reasonably practicable'.  It also tells us whether he is the window cleaner's friend or foe.

The work at height regs say that:

"Every employer shall, where necessary to prevent injury to any person, take suitable and sufficient steps to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, the fall of any material or object."

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/10/made )

So, the question really is, is it "reasonably practicable" to courdon off an area when using poles?

To me the answer is totally obvious!  Of course it isn't, and anyone who actually uses poles for window cleaning knows that. 

Is courdoning off an area an appropriate response to the risk involved? 

OBVIOUSLY NO!

Becuase I've never heard of anyone being injured by falling poles, and I would argue that the risk is minimal, and does not justify such a drastic measure of courdoning off.  Also, if this were such a risk that it needed courdoning off, then the same would be true of extended ladders.

To put it bluntly, Andy Willis, in my opinion you are talking rubbish.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=161090.0;all

All posters

If you would like to choose a central location to get together I will give up a day and thoroughly address this issue
No pay
No funding
My time free
if you want to give up yours,

See there was no uptake on this, that would take effort

As said elsewhere .........Why not write about it on here? We don't lose a days wages or waste fuel, you don't lose anything either. 

Trevor Perry can write sensible understandable posts - can't you Andrew?

[Moderator David@stives]

Come on your a window cleaner. You can easily afford a day out.

I would give up a day for a Wc meet up.

Andrew set the time and place and I will be there

[Window Washers]

Because you need to make an effort Mark etting
That post although an honest question is a little ungrateful he's offering his time to you free of charge some effort would be needed on your part he doesn't even need to offer to do this yet he has, now he has you want to do even less. A little fuel and some of your time that's all you need to give but not do nothing at all.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

Because you need to make an effort Mark etting
That post although an honest question is a little ungrateful he's offering his time to you free of charge some effort would be needed on your part he doesn't even need to offer to do this yet he has, now he has you want to do even less. A little fuel and some of your time that's all you need to give but not do nothing at all.

The point is (I can only assume you missed it) is that he, nor anyone else has to! Why can he not post answers to questions here?

[Smudger]

we do a 4 storey hotel and always courdon off the area last year doing some flats the gooseneck snapped
and the brush came down, which may not have killed any1 but would/could have caused a serious head injury

Then your risk assessment is missing an equipment check.

Vin

Vin what check should i have done ? - gooseneck was brand new !

i know there is some 'friction' going on with Impact & the willis family - personally never met them or done a course
i have however had to do several H&S courses thro previous career.
it appears to me that just because it's been highlighted by a certain member the subject has been pulled right out of
proportion - i see no need for cones (other than when crossong busy footpaths) or cordening off an area  for normal domestic
work as a pole should never be out of control - but on a high street,busy public area working 3+ storey's then yes - even if it's
just to stop joe public walking into you.

it's interesting to see all the WFP'ers defend their practices while slate tradders being unsafe for using a ladder

Darran

[James Leet]

Anyone who has been on one of Andrews Impact 43 courses remembers the first sentance he says, how much is your life worth ? and as the law says so far as reasonably practicle, the price of a few cones and a few minutes a day cordoning of areas is worth it, and any judge will support it.

whats the value of you or your employees or the publics lives............. most sensible people will agree PRICELESS

idealrob

Why do people who have been on the course feel the need to defend the course and then make statements like this ?

why do you feel the need to talk about a course that you have not been on and clearly know very little about James, can you not get the funding for it is as you seem to have a Big chip on your shoulder about it. I would bet you money you would learn something new that would help you that is of course if you don't know everything already.  Be interested to know the reel reason your trolling threads in it

Getting tetchy now eh Mr Washers ( is that your real name ? ) , i wonder if it has anything to do with me asking about your ' vested interest ' in these topics ?

not at all tetchy James you really don't affect mind mindset I find it rather amusing if I'm honest, just to clear it up for you my name is Ian Wicks my business is called Window Washers, if you look in my profile you would see a link to my site. I was simply asking you a question ( i guess that you may of overlooked this) could you answer that for me.
I have nothing to hide if at all you bothered me I simpley would ignor your posts
I come on here to help and learn not to try to pick argument as that would make me a very sad person indeed with something missing in my life.

Now try and be nice and answer the question James

The Questions you ask, i will work through them, i hope you will address the questions you have failed to answer time and time again

why do you feel the need to talk about a course that you have not been on and clearly know very little about James,

I do not need to go on a NVQ level 1 WC'ing course, yet i can still comment on the idea of it, WC'ing is not that hard to understand


can you not get the funding for it is as you seem to have a Big chip on your shoulder about it.

I havent tried to get funding, i imagine i earn too much to get a free course,

I would bet you money you would learn something new that would help you that is of course if you don't know everything already.

I expect i would, We all learn new stuff everyday, it would not be life changing though


Be interested to know the reel reason your trolling threads in it

Trolling ? is that just because i do not agree with you ? I have a opinion that we can make our own minds up, we do not need to be spoon fed H&S rubbish when 99% of us can see its all over the top

 

Now my Questions, Do You have a vested interest in all of this, do you do work for Mr Willis ?

Marks Question, Do your staff cordon 25 ft around a house when they clean windows ? which would mean forcing pedestrians onto the road ?

can you answer the above ?

[Nick Wareham]

All posters

If you would like to choose a central location to get together I will give up a day and thoroughly address this issue
No pay
No funding
My time free
if you want to give up yours,

See there was no uptake on this, that would take effort

LOL once again at Andy Willis and his amazing generous offer to educate us all if only we'll stop pointing out that he's talking rubbish and only out to make money from his courses!

There's no reason why you can't 'thouroughly address' this issue right here, other than that you just don't want to, as evidenced by the fact that getting an answer from you about it in the first place was like pulling teeth.

The point is (I can only assume you missed it) is that he, nor anyone else has to! Why can he not post answers to questions here?

+1

The reason Andy doesn't want to post answers on here is the same reason he kept saying "come on the course and you'll find out" and "why not give me a call rather than discuss it on here" when asked awkward questions in the past.  He just doesn't want to answer them on here for the simple reason that there are plenty of us who can see right through what he's doing.

There's no discussion needed.  You say that if your using poles and don't put up a courdon you're illegal.  We say that you're talking rubbish and that it's so obviously not reasonably practicable that the only person who has ever suggested it is someone who has can make money from scaring people.

Its very simple really, no need to meet up to discuss.  You want people to come on your course so you try to scare everyone into thinking they're working illegally even when they clearly aren't.

The fact you would even suggest that this would be reasonable just shows me (and no doubt everyone else) that you actually know jack about window cleaning with poles.  Anyone with more than a couple of days experience actually window cleaning would know that it would be completely impractical.

You've simply lost all credibility by claiming that we need courdon off.  

[brad t]

I have been on the course and for FREE its well worth the money, if people dont feel they need to do it then dont. He is not coming on here say that we all need to do it and pay for it.
Good luck to him for doing what others dont.

[Nick Wareham]

I have been on the course and for FREE its well worth the money, if people dont feel they need to do it then dont. He is not coming on here say that we all need to do it and pay for it.
Good luck to him for doing what others dont.

thats great that you enjoyed the course.

Question: Do you courdon off the area whenever you are using waterfed poles?

No?

Why would that be I wonder?

Perhaps because it's totally impractical? 
Maybe also because it would be totally disproportianate to the risks involved?

[James Leet]

Anyone who has been on one of Andrews Impact 43 courses remembers the first sentance he says, how much is your life worth ? and as the law says so far as reasonably practicle, the price of a few cones and a few minutes a day cordoning of areas is worth it, and any judge will support it.

whats the value of you or your employees or the publics lives............. most sensible people will agree PRICELESS

idealrob

Why do people who have been on the course feel the need to defend the course and then make statements like this ?

why do you feel the need to talk about a course that you have not been on and clearly know very little about James, can you not get the funding for it is as you seem to have a Big chip on your shoulder about it. I would bet you money you would learn something new that would help you that is of course if you don't know everything already.  Be interested to know the reel reason your trolling threads in it

Getting tetchy now eh Mr Washers ( is that your real name ? ) , i wonder if it has anything to do with me asking about your ' vested interest ' in these topics ?

not at all tetchy James you really don't affect mind mindset I find it rather amusing if I'm honest, just to clear it up for you my name is Ian Wicks my business is called Window Washers, if you look in my profile you would see a link to my site. I was simply asking you a question ( i guess that you may of overlooked this) could you answer that for me.
I have nothing to hide if at all you bothered me I simpley would ignor your posts
I come on here to help and learn not to try to pick argument as that would make me a very sad person indeed with something missing in my life.

Now try and be nice and answer the question James

The Questions you ask, i will work through them, i hope you will address the questions you have failed to answer time and time again

why do you feel the need to talk about a course that you have not been on and clearly know very little about James,

I do not need to go on a NVQ level 1 WC'ing course, yet i can still comment on the idea of it, WC'ing is not that hard to understand


can you not get the funding for it is as you seem to have a Big chip on your shoulder about it.

I havent tried to get funding, i imagine i earn too much to get a free course,

I would bet you money you would learn something new that would help you that is of course if you don't know everything already.

I expect i would, We all learn new stuff everyday, it would not be life changing though


Be interested to know the reel reason your trolling threads in it

Trolling ? is that just because i do not agree with you ? I have a opinion that we can make our own minds up, we do not need to be spoon fed H&S rubbish when 99% of us can see its all over the top

 

Now my Questions, Do You have a vested interest in all of this, do you do work for Mr Willis ?

Marks Question, Do your staff cordon 25 ft around a house when they clean windows ? which would mean forcing pedestrians onto the road ?

can you answer the above ?

Washers, you might have missed this 

[AuRavelling79]

I am sure I would learn something from taking up Andrew's "free" offer. However, I do not feel I need to take the risk and invest the time to learn that something at the present stage my business is at.

However, Andrew, you said in an early post that if a window cleaner didn't have a certificate as per PUWER 98 he would be working illegally (or the substance of that) - I have asked three times now for you to show me where that is written.

I have scanned the on-line regs, not pored over them carefully and I am simply asking you to show me. It may be I have not noticed or they are in some form I haven't found. The regs. contained useful reminders too, but ...

You put up the assertion Andrew, would you please show me where it is written?

If you cannot or will not answer that question on here why would I want to drive and meet up with you? After all, as a self employed and employing sole trader I must avoid risk where practically possible and driving perhaps over 100 miles on busy, unbarriered  A roads with vehicles passing each other legally at up to 60 miles per hour has more risk than my falling off my chair while typing on-line when I get the surprise of my life and you answer my question.

 

[Forum Admin]

Andy has yeat again renewed his advertising campaign with us which allows to put towards the costs of running, maintaining and keeping on top of this forum for you guys!

That's enough now - LOCKED.