[Nick Wareham]

Well, finally we have an answer from the illustrius Andy Willis.

He thinks that if you don't courdon off the area when using poles, then you're in breach of the work at height regulations.  And this is because there is a risk of falling poles.

Why is this important?  Because it calls into question whether Andy Willis and his crew really do know what they're on about when it comes to using waterfed poles and what is 'reasonably practicable'.  It also tells us whether he is the window cleaner's friend or foe.

The work at height regs say that:

"Every employer shall, where necessary to prevent injury to any person, take suitable and sufficient steps to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, the fall of any material or object."

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/10/made )

So, the question really is, is it "reasonably practicable" to courdon off an area when using poles?

To me the answer is totally obvious!  Of course it isn't, and anyone who actually uses poles for window cleaning knows that. 

Is courdoning off an area an appropriate response to the risk involved? 

OBVIOUSLY NO!

Becuase I've never heard of anyone being injured by falling poles, and I would argue that the risk is minimal, and does not justify such a drastic measure of courdoning off.  Also, if this were such a risk that it needed courdoning off, then the same would be true of extended ladders.

To put it bluntly, Andy Willis, in my opinion you are talking rubbish.

[Dave Willis]

The pole could of course fall backwards this is the reason I always close off the road I'm working in.

[Smudger]

if your talking std domestic houses then NO

but defo when working at 3 storey's +  and where their is a lot of public foot traffic

we do a 4 storey hotel and always courdon off the area last year doing some flats the gooseneck snapped
and the brush came down, which may not have killed any1 but would/could have caused a serious head injury

i have also been cleaning when suddenly the wind syarts to gust - believe me it's extremely hard keeping the
pole from flying off the building

Darran

[trevor perry]

Well, finally we have an answer from the illustrius Andy Willis.

He thinks that if you don't courdon off the area when using poles, then you're in breach of the work at height regulations.  And this is because there is a risk of falling poles.

Why is this important?  Because it calls into question whether Andy Willis and his crew really do know what they're on about when it comes to using waterfed poles and what is 'reasonably practicable'.  It also tells us whether he is the window cleaner's friend or foe.

The work at height regs say that:

"Every employer shall, where necessary to prevent injury to any person, take suitable and sufficient steps to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, the fall of any material or object."

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/10/made )

So, the question really is, is it "reasonably practicable" to courdon off an area when using poles?

To me the answer is totally obvious!  Of course it isn't, and anyone who actually uses poles for window cleaning knows that.  

Is courdoning off an area an appropriate response to the risk involved?  

OBVIOUSLY NO!

Becuase I've never heard of anyone being injured by falling poles, and I would argue that the risk is minimal, and does not justify such a drastic measure of courdoning off.  Also, if this were such a risk that it needed courdoning off, then the same would be true of extended ladders.

To put it bluntly, Andy Willis, in my opinion you are talking rubbish.

Hi Nick i  currently am of the same opinion as yourself when it comes to courdoning off the fall area of a pole but in the end if an accident occured it would come down to how the regs are interpreted Andrew on his course showed it is our responsibility to protect public from falling objects when working and suggests courdoning off to be the answer. it is up to ourselves if we follow his advice
 i like yourself believe this risk to be minimal and likewise have not heard of any accidents where this has happened, on a couple of jobs i have done using 70ft poles i have had a banksman to warn of the work being carried out as at the time with amount of pedestrian traffic i thought it was necassary, would this of been enough if an accident had occured the truth is i dont know.
  i am just off to the funfair now to buy some helium filled ballons how many do you think i will need tieing to brush head to stop it falling

[chez]

Man this is bizarre! I've been a window cleaner for 28 years and in my time I've done some silly things on a ladder - fell off twice 27 years ago but was my own fault over - stretching - not fallen off since. My mate fell off his ladder this week cos it slipped and he put his hand through glass and cut himself not badly tho. So I can understand the worry and safety over the use of a ladder.
But surely anyone with common sense using a pole, feeling strong when using it, in nearly 4 years I have never come close to dropping, damaging someone, even in strong wind. Perhaps collapsing it down when moving house to house etc which cuts down the risks. But come on this is nonsense cordon off "a road" (!!!!!) on domestic houses  paths etc! It's seems to me that H& S try in their little offices to think of everything possible that can go wrong with using anything, which of course most never happen in real life.  
health and safety gone mad - just my opinion of course.

[JackieW]

So if using a 30 foot long pole should you cordon off a minimum 30 foot radius?

[James Leet]

Man this is bizarre! I've been a window cleaner for 28 years and in my time I've done some silly things on a ladder - fell off twice 27 years ago but was my own fault over - stretching - not fallen off since. My mate fell off his ladder this week cos it slipped and he put his hand through glass and cut himself not badly tho. So I can understand the worry and safety over the use of a ladder.
But surely anyone with common sense using a pole, feeling strong when using it, in nearly 4 years I have never come close to dropping, damaging someone, even in strong wind. Perhaps collapsing it down when moving house to house etc which cuts down the risks. But come on this is nonsense cordon off "a road" (!!!!!) on domestic houses  paths etc! It's seems to me that H& S Mr Willis & Impact43 try in their little offices to think of everything possible that can go wrong with using anything, which of course most never happen in real life.  
health and safety gone mad - just my opinion of course.

Corrected it for you

[Moderator David@stives]

Did Andrew not tell you he owns a cone factory

[stuart mc]

Did Andrew not tell you he owns a cone factory

I like ice cream

[chez]

Ahhhh cheers James I knew I was missing something lol
David - if this is the way window cleaning is going then I think we should all invest in cones !!! Of course I don't think it will  

[Moderator David@stives]

Hi Chez

I think cones are the one must have for wfp, we have 2 in each van

1 saying "caution trip hazard", and  one saying "warning trip hazard cone ahead"

[idealrob]

Anyone who has been on one of Andrews Impact 43 courses remembers the first sentance he says, how much is your life worth ? and as the law says so far as reasonably practicle, the price of a few cones and a few minutes a day cordoning of areas is worth it, and any judge will support it.

whats the value of you or your employees or the publics lives............. most sensible people will agree PRICELESS

idealrob

[chez]

Hi David - good one hahaha I do agree tho that cones are important to warn the public which I have. But all this talk of " how much is your life worth" when all we are talking about is a 1.2kg pole safely with control extended and retracted against a house, and we say how much is your life worth? Wow did I miss the headlines or something - how many people have died or been injured so far - it must have been awful! Joking aside guys be sensible work safely and all the best to all 

[stuart mc]

Anyone who has been on one of Andrews Impact 43 courses remembers the first sentance he says, how much is your life worth ? and as the law says so far as reasonably practicle, the price of a few cones and a few minutes a day cordoning of areas is worth it, and any judge will support it.

whats the value of you or your employees or the publics lives............. most sensible people will agree PRICELESS

idealrob

so do your lads cordon off left. right and back? and how does the traffic cope with that when you close a city centre

[trevor perry]

This has nothing to do with window cleaning but gives an insight on how the HSE and claim solicitors go about their duty, on local television last night a rail company has been fined and ordered to pay compensation the reason being a teenage boy climbed over a fence into a train yard then climbed up onto the top of one of the wagons and was then electrecuted by an overhead cable, the fence he climbed through had warnings of no tresspassing and warnings of high voltage electric.
    This was a tragic accident and it was decided the rail company had failed to provide proper security for the site and therfore found liable. In my opinion this ruling was absolutely stupid it wasnt a young child who could not read that had wandered onto an unsecured site and died this was some teenage lad seeking a thrill, although tragic surely the boy was old enough to take responsibility for his own actions and should never of got to court,
   My point being what we feel may be common sense rulings may not be the case when solicitors get hold of the matter

[king marko]

Hi Chez

I think cones are the one must have for wfp, we have 2 in each van

1 saying "caution trip hazard", and  one saying "warning trip hazard cone ahead"

I'm gonna get myself a set like the Russian dolls 

[Moderator David@stives]

I have actually seen someone trip over a cone

[trevor perry]

I have actually seen someone trip over a cone

i have actually tripped over one of my own cones

[Moderator David@stives]

Trev

Maybe because it is a bare wire, any untrained person should of not been allowed to come into contact with it no matter what the circumstances were.

Mayme the same reason pylons have tons of barbed wire around the base, although as a kid we used to climb half way up them

[chez]

Yes they stepped over a 10 mm bright yellow hose and tripped on 2 foot high cone !