[Steve Sed]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

[p1w1]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

[king marko]

Does anybody know the actual statistics for accidents caused by unattended or poorly supervised waterfed poles during the last year or so?

Would be interesting reading 

[Steve Sed]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

[king marko]

^^ Creating a solution to a problem that didn't exist  methinks   

[Window Washers]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying to tar all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

[Steve Sed]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

Well I don't think it is against the law to ever work on a flat roof. You do think it is against the law?

The HSE don't think it is according to the paper I linked to above. If I am wrong, I am wrong and would rather know than carry on.

[king marko]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer

" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
 
Brill 

[James Leet]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer

" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
 
Brill 

It is an improvement over ' phone me and i will tell you '

[Window Washers]

But no doubt soon we will hear why we must NEVER work on a flat roof.

i dont believe its working off the flat roof that is the problem, its the way you get access on to roof that is the problem

Whatever the reason is, we have been told that it is against the law to work off flat roofs.

"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs"

When I asked why, Andrew Willis implied that by questioning him I proved that he isright and all us "sole traders" are ignorant.

or is it that your ignorant with your view, and are trying tar is all of US with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one ?

You'd make a great politician - answering a question with a garbled answer

" and are trying tar is all of us with your opinion which in mine is the wrong one"
 
Brill 

It is an improvement over ' phone me and i will tell you to call me

James don't be a hater because I didn't ask you to calll

For your information I have helped a lot of people from here and all over the place with my knowledge, I try to add value for people should you ever meet me you would see this.
Thank you for your worthwhile post

[Andrew Willis]

For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.

It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering.  I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.

If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.

hi Nick
    i am currently in the middle of the impact 43 course and firmly disagree with cordoning off the fall area of the pole but when you say it is not the law this can depend on how you interpret the law because as andrew showed it is our responsibility to prevent any falling objects and if the pole falls and was to hit someone it could be argued we did not take enough precautions, my argument was that if we was hold of the pole then surely that would be classed as a reasonable precaution, i could understand if a pole was left extended and unatended being a risk. i could understand maybe having a banksman are cordoning offwhen using poles over 50ft to warn pedestrians and this is something i have already done in the past but surely for poles smaller than this the risk is miniscule
     This is what worries me about these checks and has already been mentioned in that they will be used as a way to raise revenue and lots of little hitlers will be wandering about interpreting the law in a way that suits them just to raise funds

Totally disagree with this comment

Its got nothing to do with you holding the pole
The law is clear
Trevor I will cover this more in workshop 3
Your view is incorrect
I will explain this in more detail

as always regards Andy

[Andrew Willis]

For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.

It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering.  I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.

If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.

Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998
If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items

[keyser soze]

you could always go on the course , its free for many . well worth your time . andrew willis is a health and safety jedi..  if its anything like other trades hse will drag window cleaning trade up to the same safety as the building trade. be prepared. and you get certification to prove you are trained in your job whether you think its worthless or not. the goverment aren't funding this to make andrew rich.

[Nick Wareham]

LOL at Andrew willis.

Not that it is any of your concern, but I do have a training certificate for waterfed poles, from the BWCA when I did a course with them.  But even if I hadn't you are still dodging the question.

The point you were on about in your article wasn't ablout lack of training, it was about not courdoning off the area when using poles.

In case you forget, this is what you actually said:

"So what happens if a cleaner drops a pole onto a member of the public?  Regulation 10 of the Working at Height Legislation covers falling objects, and makes it clear that in order to fully comply with the law, a safety zone should be demarcated, ideally including cones, tape and barriers.  There should also be clear signs indicating that work is iin progress, and that there may be a falling objects hazard.  Such barriers and signs are frequently missing."

Now, to put it bluntly, its my opinion that what you've said there is a load of rubbish, for the simple reason that doing so would not be "reasonably practicable", and the work at height regs always say that they apply as long as it is reasonably practicable.

So, let me ask you a straight question:
Do you stand by this?  Do you really believe that we should all be courdoning off an area when we use poles?

Yes or no?

(And "our training course deals with all that" is not an answer)

PS I especially liked the "in the next week" bit, kinda feisty when you get asked awkward questions aint ya?

[rosskesava]

It's a bit like when recently I did an end of build clean of 8 houses on a building site. The foreman said to me that ladders were not to be used even though I had said I'd not be using them.

When I asked why no ladders are to be used, he didn't really know or have an exact answer except 'H & S regulations'.

[Dave Willis]

Ladders are not actually banned for residential work are they? Neither is access by ladder and yet working from a flat roof is?
Correct or not?

When are the courses coming to Wilts?

[andyM]

For me, the amazing Andy Willis and his crew lost all credibility when he wrote in that article that people using waterfed pole, even in a private street, should courdon off the area below the pole in case it falls and hurts someone, and this was the law.

It clearly is NOT the law, and is just them scare mongering.  I think he said that he thought that because of this that 90% of waterfed polers were breaking the law.

If this is the level of regulation they are pushing for then they should disappear back to whatever it was they were doing before they realised they could claim a fat cheque from the government for every window cleaner they get to go on their course.

Nick Wareham
Thank you for your post
Please up load a copy of your training certificate for the use of water fed pole
Within the next week
I guess you are amongst many that don't have one
If thats the case then you don't comply with PUWER 1998If you have one accept my apologies
If not stop posting on these items

Im gonna chip in here and say that my own thoughts are the PUWER 1998 regulations are being used in the wrong context here.
Realistically the PUWER regulations make a lot of sense when concerned with portable power tools, static machinery, lifting equipment etc.
But to apply these regulations to the use of a "brush on a stick" instead of using common sense is quite silly in my opinion.

[Spruce]

I don't understand why some posters have been so rude with their comments on this thread.

Training and keeping up to date with the latest regulation changes are a major concern for all businesses as well as a major headache.

A company comes along to fill a need in the market place focused on window cleaning and some get "hot under the collar."

If they (Impact43) didn't train people to the 'letter of the law' then they would be failing in their duty to provide proper training. Unfortunately, interpretation of rules differs among those in the industry which doesn't make it any easier for us.

There was a recent poster on here that couldn't get a new job quoted for accepted as his risk assessment and method statement regarding cleaning from a flat roof was rejected.
When he sat down with them they were quite happy for him to tape a 'no go area' 1 Meter from the edge of the roof  and he was never to step outside that demarcation.
This flat roof was also used as a fire escape. Someone in authority must have signed this fire escape route off as acceptable, but logically, with fire, smoke and panicking employees, is an unguarded edge an acceptable fire escape? Is it safe?

The way I see it is that when you are young you are immortal - nothing can go wrong - you are in control. Unfortunately, from personal experience, you then realise that as you get older this isn't the case and anything can happen.
What happens if you have a heart attack while you are working with your pole on say the 2nd story. No matter what, when my brother died of a heart attack, he was standing one moment, collapsed and died the next. Had he have been using a 40' pole with people in the fall area, they could have been hit with his pole - he would have had no control over that.

The same senario can be applied to your flat roof issue. What happens if you have a heart attack while up on the flat roof? Having an adaquate fall arrest system may save you from falling off the building during the episode - whats the point in having a recoverable heart attack but dying from the injuries sustained in that fall?

The regulations have been put in place to cover everyone. Whilst our window cleaner statistics of falling from a flat roof are very small I would imagine, roofers will have a totally different statistic.

I know 2 in the local area who have received major injuries with a long recuperation time. I noticed that 1 of them was doing a job with all the safety scaffolding etc, so he has learnt his lesson.
The other is still suffering from brain damage he received in his fall and will never work again.  When he fell, he landed on a brick gate post with one of those concrete cone caps. Is he lucky to be alive? Questionable?

[DG Cleaning]

What happens if I have a heart attack whilst driving the car? Or walking upstairs and i fall backwards, crossing the road, holding a baby, riding a bike and on it goes.

[Andrew Willis]

What happens if I have a heart attack whilst driving the car? Or walking upstairs and i fall backwards, crossing the road, holding a baby, riding a bike and on it goes.

There is a fat guy works in a shop.

What if he has a heart attack and falls on someone?

Does he need a cordon?