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Fin Clearview

  • Posts: 929
Battery problemo? SOS
« on: November 06, 2012, 11:36:06 pm »
Right, my first problem I can't work out today.

Firstly I'm driving a 61 reg trafic with factory batt. My wfp is running off a leisure batt (new from pure freedom in aug), it is charged from the main batt, all wired professionally, earthed and has a relay/junction box thingy on the wiring. All connections are tight.

I am using a varistream flow controller with battery indicator (also new from aug). I have had no probs with it all until today and the battery to main battery wiring has been running fine since it was done a month ago.

For the last couple of weeks I have been driving to my rounds 30min away. Today I was on my first job at 8am, working very close (only 2 roads next to each other) until about 2pm when water stopped at the pole. Went to van and controller flashing 'u' for undercharged. I switched 'off' and hit '+/-' to check battery level and it flashes as 'two bars' (it goes 1,2 or 3 being fully charged), which was strange as I have worked with this flashing as one bar so I was surprised for it to be flashing as two. Anyway I turned it on again and it cut out and turned itself off, so I ran the engine for about 10 mins and the battery indicator flashed 'three bars' so I carried on got me through another hour or so then it happened again. Same thing ran engine then back to work till I finished at 4.30pm.

Has anyone got any ideas, I've given as much info as poss, I did have the heater going when I set off this morn , but the van is on the go every day and I didn't think the leisure batt would run out of charge. Baffled.com

Cheers

Fin

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 11:38:19 pm »
Yr only trickle charging yr leisure
Battery
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 11:39:06 pm »
Shud be fine with an
Overnight charge???
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

Fin Clearview

  • Posts: 929
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 11:45:03 pm »
Can I charge the batt with the connections attached for the relay or do I have to remove them? Ta

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 11:51:21 pm »
May need a leisure battery
Charger could be wrong
Similar to a car battery charger
But a leisure battery charger
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

Fin Clearview

  • Posts: 929
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2012, 11:54:46 pm »
Yes Gav I have a leisure charger, do you know if I can just put it straight on or do I have to remove the relay connections?

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 12:06:48 am »
Not sure tbh someone will
Advise accordingly
Mostly a gud bunch  ;D
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

rosskesava

  • Posts: 17015
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 01:21:46 am »
Get rid of the flow controller.

I don't know why anyone uses one.

Apart from that, maybe the battery is on it's way out and the cold weather has made that more apparent but I'm far from a battery expert.
Just chant..... Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. It's beats chanting Tory Tory or Labour Labour.

richywilts

  • Posts: 4261
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 01:57:29 am »
my friends system done something similar the other day check the earth wire hasnt become disabled from the battery he had taken battery out for some reason and when he connected pos n neg to terminals had forgotten to connect an earth wire im no expert but my friend whose an autospark had come to take a look n this was wat it was
Richard Wiltshire
Window Clean Direct

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Dave Willis

Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 07:23:03 am »
What if the van battery was on the way out? Would it take the bulk of the charge away from the leisure battery first?

Dave Garrett

  • Posts: 267
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 07:44:46 am »

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2012, 07:45:19 am »
yes you can charge overnight with it still attached and it wont charge the van batt bue to the relay
(unless spruce knows better)

i have to say 1 leisure batt is never enough for a days cleaning day in day out, we have 2 on the van and this stores enough power for 2 man set up to run all day every day

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Tom White

Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2012, 02:50:08 pm »
Get rid of the flow controller; that's your problem; your battery will be fine.  I bought another battery after my flow controller messed me about; shortly after I blew the flow controller by connecting it up the wrong way, so then used the pump and the pump's pressure switch - no controller - and the old battery works just fine.

It's your flow controller I tell ye *veins in neck standing out* it's your flow controller; be rid of the beast and work with a fast flow like a real man.

HTH.

Small but perfectley formed

  • Posts: 1744
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2012, 02:58:55 pm »
Had the same problem with varistream £250 leisure battery fine until we had cold spell last week then it started Monday bought a new battery and it's fine .
The battery gets charged with ctek intelligent charger so maybe varistream over sensitive?
Spit and polish

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2012, 03:37:22 pm »
Yes you can just put the charger onto the leisure battery terminals without disconnecting anything - you don't have take the terminals off, just make sure you connect the charger cables the correct way round.

I disagree with Tosh, but then he has had a lot of grief from flow controllers, so I don't blame him advising you the way he has. However, this time removing the flow controller won't get down to the basis of the problem. Infact, removing the flow controller will aggrivate the problem further, because your battery isn't being charged up enough.

So the first step is to charge your battery up and that will get you going fine tomorrow.

The second thing you need to do is order or buy a 10 amp on/off switch from an electrical sales outlet. This will be fine.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-1-gang-10a-switch-ip55-240v/47152

Now you want to put this next to your controller so you can switch off the current from your leisure battery to your Varistream. So this will be an isolator switch. The problem with the latest Varistream is that they use current even when they are switched off.

We found that a new fully charged 85 amp Numax leisure battery was being drained to a 75% charge just lying idle for a week. At the end of the day just switch the switch off - end of story.

The very reason you are able to let the van engine run and charge the leisure battery a bit shows that the split charge relay system is working correctly.

I have fitted a volt and amp meter to my system to see what actually happens during a normal working day.

With our Varistreams the higher the pump flow rate the more current (amps) the motor draws. So I would guess that with Tosh's pump running flat out, his pump would be drawing about 8 amps, whereas ours will be drawing around half that, depending on our flow rate setting.
If we assume that your pump is drawing 4 amps per hour and your pump actually pumps water for 4 hours through the day, then the pump will have drawn 16 amps of current from the battery. In theory this means that if you have an 85 amp battery you will only have 69 amps left.

Even when my battery is half charged my alternator settles down to a charge rate of 8 amps when recharging the leisure battery. In theory this means that your van needs to be charging your battery for 2 hours to replenish what you took out. (Unfortunately it isn't as simple as that as the battery will only accept a smaller and smaller charge as it gets fuller. I once read in an Australian camper van article that someone estimated it would take a road journey of 750 kms to recharge an 85amp leisure battery via the vans alternator.)

Now it usually takes me 10 minutes to drive to my first house maybe another 10 minutes moving the van etc and 10 minutes driving home. So using the above example, I am taking 16 amps put of the battery and only putting 4 amps back in the day (30 minutes driving at a recharge of 8 amps). So you can see that within a short period of time my battery would be flat if I didn't supplement it's charge with my battery charger.

If I get stuck in traffic, thats good for my leisure battery as the van still charges my battery at the same rate idling as it does at 3000 rpm on the motorway. So the longer it takes you to get home, ie the slower your drive, the more charge you are putting into your leisure battery and also saving fuel.

If you do a search, I have commented on leisure battery charging on numerous occassions, some of which are relevant to you.

Hope that helps.  
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2012, 04:18:07 pm »
I'm also going to add that the battery condition gauge on the new Varistreams can't be taken seriously TBH. Its nothing to do with the product, it the way electronics and leisure batteries work.

Firstly the battery charge level is read by the voltage of the battery. 3 bars = 100% charged, 2 bars = 65% - 20% charged and 1 bar = under 20% charged. So a fully charged leisure battery should read 12.66volts, a 75% charged battery 12.45 volts, a 50% charged battery 12.24 volts and a 25% charged battery 12.06 volts. (Figures from a leisure battery help website.)

I'm pretty sure that when you let your engine idle to boost your battery, the varistream would have initially shown 3 bars when you switched the engine off.  If you waited a while you may only have then got 2 bars and if you waited for quite some time then you would have probably got just 1 bar. A leisure battery needs time to stabilise before a reading is taken, so first thing in the morning before you do anything with your system is the best time to check your charge on the Varistream. You are wasting your time once you have driven off as the battery will always need time to stabilise.

Varistream have their latest contoller set as follows. 'L' flashing is low battery at 11.5 volts. 'U' flashing is shutdown at 10.3 volts. At 10.3 volts the leisure battery is truely flat. Spring have set their latest controllers at 10.5 volts from 11.1.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

matthewprice

  • Posts: 758
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2012, 05:58:00 pm »
had the same flowcontroller with 3 bars very unreliable when it went to 2 bar pump died swaped over to the controller that displays in volts (?)13.2 down to 11.7 ,so you are in no doubt as to how much power is left.also if you dont do enough miles you wont power up your battery

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2012, 07:41:50 pm »
had the same flowcontroller with 3 bars very unreliable when it went to 2 bar pump died swaped over to the controller that displays in volts (?)13.2 down to 11.7 ,so you are in no doubt as to how much power is left.also if you dont do enough miles you wont power up your battery

I have a digital volt and amp meter - The display is in figures and TBH I haven't a clue whether the battery is half charged, 3 quarters charged or fully charged -half of 1 volt between flat and fully charged is very small. My best gauge is watching how much current in amps the leisure battery is accepting on the move.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Fin Clearview

  • Posts: 929
Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2012, 11:25:52 pm »
Right well what can I say..thanks a lot fellas for the detailed explanations, I never thought pre wfp the batt was going to be so complicated!! Anyway hopefully I won't have to worry about it once I have the switch installed and now that I am a little wiser after reading the above comments. I think I'll stick with the controller for now, as I'm still getting used to how much water I use and I'm still doing the odd initial clean therefore I'm currently using around 500l on average per day and I try and keep the controller on number 3 on the flow rate. I don't think it would last the day If I removed the controller so ill persist with it.
 Oh and bizarrely all was fine today, work was much same as yesterday very close yet no batt probs only thing different was temp wasn't quite as cold. Am charging the batt tonight anyway although the whole point of having the relay fitted was as I didn't think I'd have to use the charger but it sounds like ill need to!
Thanks again Spruce & Tosh

Fin

Tom White

Re: Battery problemo? SOS
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2012, 11:35:08 pm »
I'm currently using around 500l on average per day

If you're by yourself, that's a lot of water.  Two of us (one part time; Wor Lass just works mornings) get through about 600 litres on a normal day, and neither of us use flow controllers.

Do you think it's possible that you're being overly fussy and spending a long time on each window and therefore using a lot of water?

Just a thought.