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David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« on: November 04, 2012, 02:33:17 pm »
Too start. This is not a post to have a go at Gardiners or Facelift................ It is just 'the way I see it'
 
1. Alot of us on here love Gardiners products and the way gardiners run there set up. There poles are great, brushes are great and customer service is guess what, great. So I guess that if I was wanting to open up or improve a wfp supplying business I would use Gardiners as my business model.

2. Facelift are wanting a slice of Gardiners market and are looking at his business as a model to try and emulate. They have produced a pole that looks great, a rival for the Gardiners range. (time will tell)
 
The phoenix was rushed out of the door for Vanfest, understandable as facelift will be very excited to get it out there. Spec's and information at that point where not finalised but the pole went out anyway and with all the talk and interest it went on sale.

This is where some of us got upset. A brand new pole with some real neat features brought to market by a UK company but then, only for the company to let a hand full of poles go out to the UK and sell the rest to the rest of the world.

IMO we would all be a bit more PRO Facelift if more uk window cleaners had a pole to use and give a review. So far I have only read 2 comments regarding the pole in proper use. I know as time goes by more poles will be out there getting used and more reviews will be posted, but come on, future product releases from facelift need to be more well thought out IMO.

p.s. Can you update your website please Facelift. Get some Phoenix details on there please and take down the advert for a 2011 Product catalogue, I dont think anyone will want one.   


Finally, I think this is all great for us UK window cleaners, another company wanting to be the best in all avenues, 2013 is going to be GREAT!

Keep it up Gardiners and Facelift!! We do appreciate the work you do and the stressyou go through for us end users.
Thank you
 

supernova77

  • Posts: 3547
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 02:51:27 pm »
We need healthy competition in the suppliers industry... It keeps suppliers on their toes price and quality wise.

Andy

David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2012, 02:55:30 pm »
here here

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2012, 04:16:45 pm »
The most exiting bit for me is Gardiners next effort.

Every time in the past, when someone else has attempted to catch them up (& failed), just afterwards Gardiners have released the next step in wfp innovation!! So the competition has always very much been dated almost upon release! ;D

One plays catch-up, the other paves the way ahead. ;)

gary999

  • Posts: 8156
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2012, 04:34:58 pm »
The most exiting bit for me is Gardiners next effort.

Every time in the past, when someone else has attempted to catch them up (& failed), just afterwards Gardiners have released the next step in wfp innovation!! So the competition has always very much been dated almost upon release! ;D

One plays catch-up, the other paves the way ahead. ;)

the status quo doesnt always stay the same....but if window cleaners benefit long term hey ho! :)

gary999

  • Posts: 8156
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 04:35:51 pm »
Too start. This is not a post to have a go at Gardiners or Facelift................ It is just 'the way I see it'
 
1. Alot of us on here love Gardiners products and the way gardiners run there set up. There poles are great, brushes are great and customer service is guess what, great. So I guess that if I was wanting to open up or improve a wfp supplying business I would use Gardiners as my business model.

2. Facelift are wanting a slice of Gardiners market and are looking at his business as a model to try and emulate. They have produced a pole that looks great, a rival for the Gardiners range. (time will tell)
 
The phoenix was rushed out of the door for Vanfest, understandable as facelift will be very excited to get it out there. Spec's and information at that point where not finalised but the pole went out anyway and with all the talk and interest it went on sale.

This is where some of us got upset. A brand new pole with some real neat features brought to market by a UK company but then, only for the company to let a hand full of poles go out to the UK and sell the rest to the rest of the world.

IMO we would all be a bit more PRO Facelift if more uk window cleaners had a pole to use and give a review. So far I have only read 2 comments regarding the pole in proper use. I know as time goes by more poles will be out there getting used and more reviews will be posted, but come on, future product releases from facelift need to be more well thought out IMO.

p.s. Can you update your website please Facelift. Get some Phoenix details on there please and take down the advert for a 2011 Product catalogue, I dont think anyone will want one.   


Finally, I think this is all great for us UK window cleaners, another company wanting to be the best in all avenues, 2013 is going to be GREAT!

Keep it up Gardiners and Facelift!! We do appreciate the work you do and the stressyou go through for us end users.
Thank you
 

one of the few sensible posts i have seen on this subject :)

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 04:54:32 pm »
Having taken a back seat in this Facelift/Gardiner's pole debacle, I would be no closer to having a definitive answer if I was in your position.

So the Facelift 26UL is actually a 22 footer with a first section that can be used on those occasional times when you want a little extra length. On one post you can use it at its full length all the time and then on another post you really need to look at a longer length pole if you were using the 26UL at full length all the time. (Both comments from the same person).

This reminds me of an incident in the power tool industry overseas. As technical manager, I get called onto a building site to advise what rotary hammer drill is needed on this rugby stadium to drill x number of 26mm holes in 60MPA concrete the fit thousands of seats for the fans.

Bosch had 2 machines, the first was a UBH2/26 and a UBH 4/36. The first drill could drill a maximum of 26mm holes and the second could drill a maximum of 36mm hole size. The first drill cost half the price of the second, but I discounted the first drill and advised they purchased the more expensive drill – the reason that as the cheaper drill was working at the top of its limit, it wouldn’t perform well and wouldn’t last long.

Low and behold, they purchased the small machine from a local dealership and surprise, surprise, they were returned to our workshops with a week under warranty. Unfortunately for them, the same person who advised on the correct machine also rejected their warranty claim, which made them threaten all sorts, but they ended up buying the right tool.

Got to thinking the same applies here.

 I would purchase 3 x SLX30’s and know you have the right tool for the right job. I obviously don’t know the job you want these poles for, but I might consider one (or two) 30’ pole for the tops, and purchase a couple of 22’ (SLX22) footers for the lower windows if this is a two story block of building you want the poles for.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 05:00:42 pm »
Too start. This is not a post to have a go at Gardiners or Facelift................ It is just 'the way I see it'
 
1. Alot of us on here love Gardiners products and the way gardiners run there set up. There poles are great, brushes are great and customer service is guess what, great. So I guess that if I was wanting to open up or improve a wfp supplying business I would use Gardiners as my business model.

2. Facelift are wanting a slice of Gardiners market and are looking at his business as a model to try and emulate. They have produced a pole that looks great, a rival for the Gardiners range. (time will tell)
The phoenix was rushed out of the door for Vanfest, understandable as facelift will be very excited to get it out there. Spec's and information at that point where not finalised but the pole went out anyway and with all the talk and interest it went on sale.

This is where some of us got upset. A brand new pole with some real neat features brought to market by a UK company but then, only for the company to let a hand full of poles go out to the UK and sell the rest to the rest of the world.

IMO we would all be a bit more PRO Facelift if more uk window cleaners had a pole to use and give a review. So far I have only read 2 comments regarding the pole in proper use. I know as time goes by more poles will be out there getting used and more reviews will be posted, but come on, future product releases from facelift need to be more well thought out IMO.

p.s. Can you update your website please Facelift. Get some Phoenix details on there please and take down the advert for a 2011 Product catalogue, I dont think anyone will want one.  


Finally, I think this is all great for us UK window cleaners, another company wanting to be the best in all avenues, 2013 is going to be GREAT!

Keep it up Gardiners and Facelift!! We do appreciate the work you do and the stressyou go through for us end users.
Thank you
 

How many window cleaners have you seen commenting on the Fusion pole from Facelift, and that's been out for a long while?

Wasn't the one raving review a fibre glass pole? Really?
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 08:41:13 pm »
I've just read on another forum that Gardiners ditched the same surface finish as the new facelifts before coming to retail because of wear issues!! ;D

The apparent glossy coating is just whats left on after production & it will wear quite rapidly. So, sounds like it's not actually coated at all?

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 08:53:45 pm »
I've just read on another forum that Gardiners ditched the same surface finish as the new facelifts before coming to retail because of wear issues!! ;D

The apparent glossy coating is just whats left on after production & it will wear quite rapidly. So, sounds like it's not actually coated at all?

I read that as well. Good honest info provided by Alex. In my experience in a previous life, quite often sales and marketing men had no understanding of the technical stuff and often blabbed their way through talking rubbish.

I see Alex on a total different level.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 08:56:37 pm »
I've just read on another forum that Gardiners ditched the same surface finish as the new facelifts before coming to retail because of wear issues!! ;D

The apparent glossy coating is just whats left on after production & it will wear quite rapidly. So, sounds like it's not actually coated at all?

I read that as well. Good honest info provided by Alex. In my experience in a previous life, quite often sales and marketing men had no understanding of the technical stuff and often blabbed their way through talking rubbish.

I see Alex on a total different level.

Couldn't have put it better myself! ;D

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2012, 09:16:34 pm »
Guys come on.......

This makes no sense, first off how can you compare a surface on one pole with one no seen as its been rejected? How do you know it's even any where near the same, as the poles are made in completely different places with different technologies.

Secondly, SLX's are notorious for pole wear! The instructions even acknowledge this along with all with the 'black hands' users get. So you guys are saying one method was rejected to be replaced with something that is even worse?

Spruce you seem an intelligent guy with a lot of real world experience, can you explain the logic behind this?

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2012, 09:23:49 pm »
Guys come on.......

This makes no sense, first off how can you compare a surface on one pole with one no seen as its been rejected? How do you know it's even any where near the same, as the poles are made in completely different places with different technologies.

Secondly, SLX's are notorious for pole wear! The instructions even acknowledge this along with all with the 'black hands' users get. So you guys are saying one method was rejected to be replaced with something that is even worse?

Spruce you seem an intelligent guy with a lot of real world experience, can you explain the logic behind this?


No, we are saying (& you do have a track record on this) that you DO NOT have very good product knowledge.

Your pole is untested, it may wear like lightening & being the owner of both Facelift & WCW doesn't fill us with confidence that you are being fully up-front with us especially given this whole episode on here.

My first SLX lasted over 4 years of DAILY use, my second is over 1 year & as good as new! I know my poles. ;)

It may be great, but me personally, I'm not convinced of your integrity. ;)

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2012, 09:26:08 pm »
so do the pole have an extra coating on them, a lacquer of some sort, or is the finish  just the way they have come out of manufacturing?

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2012, 09:37:15 pm »
Guys come on.......

This makes no sense, first off how can you compare a surface on one pole with one no seen as its been rejected? How do you know it's even any where near the same, as the poles are made in completely different places with different technologies.

Secondly, SLX's are notorious for pole wear! The instructions even acknowledge this along with all with the 'black hands' users get. So you guys are saying one method was rejected to be replaced with something that is even worse?

Spruce you seem an intelligent guy with a lot of real world experience, can you explain the logic behind this?

No, we are saying (& you do have a track record on this) that you DO NOT have very good product knowledge.

Your pole is untested, it may wear like lightening & being the owner of both Facelift & WCW doesn't fill us with confidence that you are being fully up-front with us especially given this whole episode on here.

My first SLX lasted over 4 years of DAILY use, my second is over 1 year & as good as new! I know my poles. ;)

It may be great, but me personally, I'm not convinced of your integrity. ;)

Personally, I think I have a pretty good knowledge of products having been using wfp since the late 90's and done every part of the job from rope access and cradle work to winning a couple of trad window cleaning competitions! I'm pretty sure there are few actual suppliers out there with our experience on the job, I could be wrong

Winpro, it would be great if you could show me where my product knowledge track record is lacking. Sincerely. As it would be interesting to see what I've said before to see where I went wrong. Please email me, if you like, I would appreciate it.

.


Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2012, 09:43:39 pm »
so do the pole have an extra coating on them, a lacquer of some sort, or is the finish  just the way they have come out of manufacturing?

Yes, they have an extra weave on the pole, which adds a little to the weight but we think is necessary for the life of the pole. Nothing to do with the manufacturing process, this is added on. We could of gone bare as some have, but that has its own issues as you are aware.

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25405
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 10:00:52 pm »
Similar to Winproclean ...

My SLX35 I bought in 2007 is still in daily use (as a 20 plus rarely now as a 30) on its third set of clamps and second end cap.
My SLX22 I bought in 2010 is still in daily use (as an 18) on its second set of clamps.

My extreme is only 6 months old but no issues at all.

Maybe when I hear of another make having such good life and good reviews and good service back up I'll change.
It's a game of three halves!

ben M

  • Posts: 4720
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2012, 10:07:59 pm »
when i need to change my slx25 (very soon) i will buy a  Facelift 26UL because the pole look good and Mr Fox is a nice guy and he knows what he is doing!

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2012, 10:13:12 pm »
Similar to Winproclean ...

My SLX35 I bought in 2007 is still in daily use (as a 20 plus rarely now as a 30) on its third set of clamps and second end cap.
My SLX22 I bought in 2010 is still in daily use (as an 18) on its second set of clamps.

My extreme is only 6 months old but no issues at all.

Maybe when I hear of another make having such good life and good reviews and good service back up I'll change.

Gold that is a real testament and I can see you would need a lot of convincing to change from what has worked and lasted for you. This is exactly what we want to do is improve on already great products and come up with something better.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: Gardiners/Facelift The Way I See It.
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2012, 10:19:05 pm »
Guys come on.......

This makes no sense, first off how can you compare a surface on one pole with one no seen as its been rejected? How do you know it's even any where near the same, as the poles are made in completely different places with different technologies.

Secondly, SLX's are notorious for pole wear! The instructions even acknowledge this along with all with the 'black hands' users get. So you guys are saying one method was rejected to be replaced with something that is even worse?

Spruce you seem an intelligent guy with a lot of real world experience, can you explain the logic behind this?

You asked  :)

I have an older 40 SLX (for the odd job) and 25 SLX. Black hand syndrome are the norm on these poles. My son uses the 25 SLX and we have sprayed the outer housing with engine laquer a couple of times to reduce the carbon dust with minimal results. The black carbon dust isn't coming from the outside of the pole. If it isn't coming from the outside of the pole, its coming from the inside which we haven't laquered. Despite that black hands syndrome, the SLX25 is over 3 years old and still has plenty of life left - can't ask for much more.

We have 2 newer SLX's (1 a year old and the second 18 months old although been in service also about a year) and both of these poles were of different construction to the older poles. They are a new version and have smaller pole diameters. Son in law has 1 pole, which TBH is abused and mine is well cared for (pole hose cleaned before every opening and when putting away in the van to move to the next house, especially when the ground is damp/wet.) From my part its a total waste of time, but I don't have black hands at all. SIL complains about his black hands but it's minor compared to the older SLX25 pole.

What Alex has said about the construction method changing to produce a better pole have been born out by our experience over time. Don't get me wrong, I like your clamps, but I'm not convinced about the rest of it, really put off by the slagging off on this and other forums. I notice that Gold has corrected your conversion from metric to imperial which you had wrong on Gardiner poles.

Unfortunately, getting your facts right is so important. If you can't get that right, then what else didn't you get right I ask myself. Doubts are a very difficult to dispell once formed.

This isn't personal so please don't take it as so.

About 18 years ago Black and Decker launched their new jigsaw that had a pendulm action on the jigsaw blade along with their new Dewalt aquisition. This was big, but when I asked why the pendulm action was such a step forward on this jigsaw, not one of their marketing men or their product managers could answer the question. Then came a load of BS in explanation.  I knew the answer as I had worked for Bosch for many years and we had good experience with pendulm action jigsaws, (Bosch were the inovators of this technology) but none of the BS came close to the answer.

Our power tool managing director in South Africa openly stated that he had no technical knowledge of the product and didn't know how to use most of it, but that wasn't his job to know, just to make sure that product was marketed and year on year sales targets were met. I had the utmost respect for our MD, but I'm getting the same feeling about your company. You and Mike are on here pushing and marketing your product in the best way you believe, but you haven't convinced me that your know too much about the technical aspects of your product or the technicalities of how its made.

Sorry if I'm wrong.

PS. A couple of posts have been posted and answered while I was writing this.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)