[robert mitchell]

I'm pretty new to window cleaning and brought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole
Which turned out to be useless,  too heavy,  too bendy and clamps kept breaking .
I complained to ionics who sent me a 40ft glyder carbon pole to evaluate and then keep,  excellent customer service but poles are awful! 
I brought a clx 18 for most of my work and it's excellent,  I wanted an slx but could not afford it .
The point is I think competition can only be a good thing, It will drive prices down and improve quality .
Time will tell if the facelift poles are any good,  might be worth sending some out on loan /gift to be evaluated,  if they are as good as you say you will more than make that money back.

I

[ben M]

I'm pretty new to window cleaning and brought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole
Which turned out to be useless,  too heavy,  too bendy and clamps kept breaking .
I complained to ionics who sent me a 40ft glyder carbon pole to evaluate and then keep,  excellent customer service but poles are awful! 
I brought a clx 18 for most of my work and it's excellent,  I wanted an slx but could not afford it .
The point is I think competition can only be a good thing, It will drive prices down and improve quality .
Time will tell if the facelift poles are any good,  might be worth sending some out on loan /gift to be evaluated,  if they are as good as you say you will more than make that money back.

I

you bought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole and a clx 18 but you can't afford a slx sell your ionic pole and your clx and buy a slx 22 or 25!

[KS Cleaning]

Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle

First of all I would like to thank everyone who has commented on the Facelift threads over the last few weeks, both positive and negative, . It has been invaluable and the feedback truly appreciated. What an eye opener! The Phoenix range is the first product from the 'new' Facelift since we bought them last year, the learning curve has been tremendous!

To move Facelift into the modern world of window cleaning we needed a better pole. So we started with, what is in our mind, the current leader - Gardiners and aimed to make a product, if possible, that was better. Personally I believe unless you can produce something of value, why bother? No one needs a second rate knock off, if we can't come out with what we believe is a better product, we may as well close shop.

Seeing as Alex has years of pole building and selling experience, along with a great reputation, we have used his range as our current template therefore taking what Gardiners deems 'correct' we have adopted.

Pole Lengths
This is where the lengths come in. Basically whatever extended pole lengths Alex uses we, I hate to say it, have copied and labeled as our equivalent version. We have the pretty much exact same tube sizes. So for example, If Alex says an 18, 22, etc is his stated specs then we have to assume the same and that this is the accepted norm.

Now, we never wanted to get into a tit for tat with another supplier, but Alex has gone for an out an out attack of Facelift (which he's interestingly  never done before with other companies) going as far as releasing a video to slate the range which he has since taken down when we responded  with ours.

The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)

CLX/SLX poles

CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft

The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.

In our case we have a few more inches due to our pole design so we are closer to the stated pole length. When you add neck and brush you are even closer to the full length of the pole.

Bottom line - if your unhappy with our pole lengths, what can I say, this is now the norm! You been letting Alex get away with it for years! 

Pole Weights
In the same way we have emulated the pole lengths we have done with the weights. There is a slight difference in that lesser weighing poles end to be less rigid, wear quicker and will be weaker when made from the same substance. We have taken this  into consideration, as long as we are in the same weight area as the competition we would, and our customers have stated, want a more rigid harder wearing pole than a marginally lighter, weaker pole.

Alex has stated we say our pole UL26 is 1300g, which is not true. We don't go into gram for gram weights, tad to petty for us. We have published it as 1.3kg approx which it is. This is a bare pole and clamps, no collar, hose, etc. This is how Gardiner state their pole weights. In fact, if you hold and SLX25 and a shorter stacked longer length UL26 the weight is almost identical to the user. Going by the criteria that Alex has weighed our UL26 I would challenge him to do the same with his pole range over his published weights, everyone of them would be heavier as he would have to add an adaptor, hose, etc. Prove me wrong.

Our Focus
With the Phoenix we have looked at the pole as a whole, we think this is far more important than focusing in one area i.e. weight, rigidity, clamps, pole tolerance,  etc. the pole needs to work completely as one tool. It's about the overall experience. In fact, this is reflected in the fibreglass version. Fibreglass poles have had a bad rep for years and considered a cheap, budget product. The standard Phoenix works very well and out performs some suppliers hybrid poles.

I could go on and on, probably will do on the new site when it's finally launched. So I'll sum it up in two points.

1) We want to make outstanding tools and products that improve the industry, we got a few lined up and can't wait to get them out there but will take valuable lessons learnt here and more forward.

2) We want to be completely transparent as a company. Companies live and die on their reputation. We aim to be the world leader in water fed pole products, innovation and reputation. We have a long way to go to catch up with Alex's good name but think we can do it. Time will tell I guess.

Thanks again for reading and appreciate the input (even from the haters! Especially you sfwc!!)

So ready for any attacks, hate mail, letter bombs, etc.

Maybe Alex is a little bit annoyed(justifiably) at your poor attempt to claim that you sell the same backpack as the gardiner backpack and you label them a budget backpack.Do you actually have them in stock?   ?   ?   ?

[Stephen Fox]

Not sure how WCW backpacks can be related to the pole length, etc from Facelift as there are two seperate companies, but I see where you are coming from.

Yes we have one or two available, I saw one the other day but are literally about to change backpacks to a new model that we have in which we are very happy about.

[robert mitchell]

Ben m,  the system was much much cheaper than all other crash tested systems, 2250 with 4040 ro and that is fitted price 400 litre including the pole .
To sell the grafter I would have to spend 20 quid on clamps and the pole is not worth much .
The slx 25 us three times the price if my clx eighteen so could not afford it . Ionics sent me the glyder after I brought the clx .if you want to buy my glyder for the price of an slx I will happily sell to you!
Shame ionics can't seem to build a decent pole because the system they sold me is excellent and good value and very very good customer service .

[KS Cleaning]

Not sure how WCW backpacks can be related to the pole length, etc from Facelift as there are two seperate companies, but I see where you are coming from.

Yes we have one or two available, I saw one the other day but are literally about to change backpacks to a new model that we have in which we are very happy about.

Is it not the same people that are at the helm of both companies?If the answer is yes,I would imagine that transparency relates to both companies.
As you said in your OP Alex doesn't usually attack competitors products,but your company has falsely advertised backpacks for sale in an attempt to stop Gardiners from getting their market share,so maybe this is why Alex has felt the need to respond in this out of charachter manner.

[Neil Gornall]

Stephen,
Is facelift anything to do with Unger? the guy in your video is wearing an Unger jacket which seems an odd thing to do in your promotional video as they are also pole manufactures.
Not that I have anything against Unger as I have had a few of their poles in the past and was happy with them

[Mike #1]

When were backpacks mentioned  ,

Every competing company surely tries to gain sales  by advertising products they sell to grab attention and gain sales that is what happens . Wetherspoons sometimes sells beer cheaper than other pubs how many people complain about a cheap pint .

some people are getting to fired about things , I have to say  Gardiners is the only supplier i will buy brushes from along with all the other bits and pieces i need .

But in over 4 yrs i have not bought a gardiners pole as i am always willing to try other suppliers / manufacture's  poles , For instance 18 months ago i bought an Elite carbon 35ft and the reason for this is their were problems and issues with the SLX due to clamps and 1 or 2 other things i think .

So at the time i was not willing to take a risk when spending over £300 . Mike

[richard jagger]

I think face poles still have some time to prove the quality as far a durability goes but I must say the explanation on your clamps ware makes sense to me as it does release with the bigger gap that a lateral clamp. Time will tell if this bares true or not.

[KS Cleaning]

When were backpacks mentioned  ,

Every competing company surely tries to gain sales  by advertising products they sell to grab attention and gain sales that is what happens . Wetherspoons sometimes sells beer cheaper than other pubs how many people complain about a cheap pint .

some people are getting to fired about things , I have to say  Gardiners is the only supplier i will buy brushes from along with all the other bits and pieces i need .

But in over 4 yrs i have not bought a gardiners pole as i am always willing to try other suppliers / manufacture's  poles , For instance 18 months ago i bought an Elite carbon 35ft and the reason for this is their were problems and issues with the SLX due to clamps and 1 or 2 other things i think .

So at the time i was not willing to take a risk when spending over £300 . Mike

Aye but they are offering a product for sale that they don't have=false advertising.I mentioned backpacks in response to the OP transparency claims.

[Mike #1]

It does not say they are out of stock could have ordered one if i wanted . Mike

[Stephen Fox]

KS I'm not sure if you are aware but hardly any of the suppliers out there have stock, it probably us and one or two others that have decent stock holding of items. (Last count we had around £300k +)

Most companies operate through drop shipping and 90% of what they advertise they do not have.

[Moderator David@stives]

Looks like a very good pole Steve

On another point, where has your belly gone

[gary999]

Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?


You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.

James, sorry it comes across like this, this is exactly what we didn't want....but Alex did start it

There is a little history behind it, with a video, etc, etc

But your right, is just like a playground and I'll be the first to admit (and any one who knows me) that I'm still a kid and have yet to grow up.

From what I've seen so far, that's the only bit you've gone wrong with.  It is important though.  I've seen competitors try to slag off Gardiner products on here before - while Alex maintained a dignified silence watching his competitors shoot their own feet to pieces.  It's not just the equipment side of things where he knows what he's doing 

unfortunately mr gardiner on this occasion hasnt kept a dignified silence which i must admit i found a little disapointing

[KS Cleaning]

It does not say they are out of stock could have ordered one if i wanted . Mike

Think we have our wires crossed here,as said earlier, I am referring to the backpacks WCW were offering for sale,only they don't actually have any,it was more of a ploy by WCW to stop people buying the Gardiner backpack.I know this thread is about poles but when the OP was talking about transparency in his companies so I decided to raise this issue.

[KS Cleaning]

KS I'm not sure if you are aware but hardly any of the suppliers out there have stock, it probably us and one or two others that have decent stock holding of items. (Last count we had around £300k +)

Most companies operate through drop shipping and 90% of what they advertise they do not have.

So if I order the WCW budget backpack(sold exclusively by gardiners)on your website it will be with me at a later date then?

[Mike #1]

I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike

[KS Cleaning]

I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike

Ah!Ok mate,I will wait on Stephens reply then, to see if they are available, or are in fact a phantom product.

[James Leet]

Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?


You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.

Stephen fox used to post as Foxman. He was quite arrogant to be honest! His knowledge of products isn't that great either, on answering 3 questions about a brush he sells he got ALL 3 wrong! 

That must of been a few years back... Can I plead immaturity??

Why don't you take out a Banner on here ?

Then Magically all negative posts about you will disappear

[Stephen Fox]

Looks like a very good pole Steve

On another point, where has your belly gone

Haha! Lost 5 stone, not bad eh!