Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
First of all I would like to thank everyone who has commented on the Facelift threads over the last few weeks, both positive and negative, . It has been invaluable and the feedback truly appreciated. What an eye opener! The Phoenix range is the first product from the 'new' Facelift since we bought them last year, the learning curve has been tremendous!
To move Facelift into the modern world of window cleaning we needed a better pole. So we started with, what is in our mind, the (1) current leader - Gardiners and aimed to make a product, if possible, that was better. Personally I believe unless you can produce something of value, why bother? No one needs a second rate knock off, if we can't come out with what we believe is a better product, we may as well close shop.
Seeing as Alex has years of pole building and selling experience, along with a great reputation, we have used his range as our current template therefore taking what Gardiners deems 'correct' we have adopted.
Pole Lengths
This is where the lengths come in. Basically whatever extended pole lengths Alex uses we, I hate to say it, have copied and labeled as our equivalent version. We have the pretty much exact same tube sizes. So for example, If Alex says an 18, 22, etc is his stated specs then we have to assume the same and that this is the accepted norm.
Now, we never wanted to get into a tit for tat with another supplier, but (2)Alex has gone for an out an out attack of Facelift (which he's interestingly never done before with other companies) going as far as releasing a video to slate the range which he has since taken down when we responded with ours.
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. (3) The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
In our case we have a few more inches due to our pole design so we are closer to the stated pole length. When you add neck and brush you are even closer to the full length of the pole.
Bottom line - if your unhappy with our pole lengths, what can I say, this is now the norm! You been letting Alex get away with it for years! 
Pole Weights
In the same way we have emulated the pole lengths we have done with the weights. There is a slight difference in that lesser weighing poles end to be less rigid, wear quicker and will be weaker when made from the same substance. We have taken this into consideration, as long as we are in the same weight area as the competition we would, and our customers have stated, want a more rigid harder wearing pole than a marginally lighter, weaker pole.
(4)Alex has stated we say our pole UL26 is 1300g, which is not true. We don't go into gram for gram weights, tad to petty for us. We have published it as 1.3kg approx which it is. This is a bare pole and clamps, no collar, hose, etc. This is how Gardiner state their pole weights. In fact, if you hold and SLX25 and a shorter stacked longer length UL26 the weight is almost identical to the user. Going by the criteria that Alex has weighed our UL26 I would challenge him to do the same with his pole range over his published weights, everyone of them would be heavier as he would have to add an adaptor, hose, etc. Prove me wrong.
Our Focus
With the Phoenix we have looked at the pole as a whole, we think this is far more important than focusing in one area i.e. weight, rigidity, clamps, pole tolerance, etc. the pole needs to work completely as one tool. It's about the overall experience. In fact, this is reflected in the fibreglass version. Fibreglass poles have had a bad rep for years and considered a cheap, budget product. The standard Phoenix works very well and out performs some suppliers hybrid poles.
I could go on and on, probably will do on the new site when it's finally launched. So I'll sum it up in two points.
1) We want to make outstanding tools and products that improve the industry, we got a few lined up and can't wait to get them out there but will take valuable lessons learnt here and more forward.
2) We want to be completely transparent as a company. Companies live and die on their reputation. We aim to be the world leader in water fed pole products, innovation and reputation. We have a long way to go to catch up with Alex's good name but think we can do it. Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again for reading and appreciate the input (even from the haters! Especially you sfwc!!)
So ready for any attacks, hate mail, letter bombs, etc.
Hi Stephen (WCW/Facelift)
As the forum old timers know our forum interactions over the years (as Foxman) have always proved to be 'illuminating'.
I have been away on holiday and have just returned. Whilst I have generally enjoyed reading the back and forth and have felt no overwhelming urge to respond I did feel that there were just a few points (numbered) I would like to comment on from above - you will be aware of this though because we have already privately communicated on many of these issues.
1. First of all thank you for this public acknowledgement.
2. I did release a video for some of our clients who were asking me specifically for the difference between Facelift 26UL and our SLX25 - for most clients this was of real interest. As I had both poles I did a video showing the difference - which was a large difference in rigidity with the SLX being far stiffer and slightly lighter. Also I did a video showing the readily perceivable benefits of the lateral clamps over the lengthways clamps. Once again this was to answer the questions I was receiving from clients. These videos were posted on YouTube and mentioned to the clients who had asked - not posted on our website or any forums. These videos were completely accurate representations on the product - however I removed them the very next day as you stated on a forum and by email that the poles I had been sent from the on-line retailer were actually sub-standard pre-production poles which had somehow got into the system. This is why I removed the videos (as stated in my email to you) as it would not have been fair (IMO) to use sub-standard poles for a comparison. You also gave me a link to your video which you had quickly worked on - if you recall I did not get into a debate with you via email about some of the unfair or manipulated comparisons on your video as I felt it simply not worth my energy and trusted that intelligent viewers would quickly spot the flaws in the video (which they have done). You also removed the video at that time - however as your company has chosen to make this video public I feel quite happy to now comment on it where asked.
Since I have now got the full-production spec replacement poles I have re-shot some of the video and will be releasing another video showing the benefits of the lateral clamp system. In my mind your company's production poles are virtually no different to the 'allegedly' sub-standard pre-production poles apart from the addition of a logo sticker.
I have always posted on forums where I have noticed that a competing product is inaccurately being marketed in direct comparison to ours. I have done this over the years with various poles including most recently the Elite range who launched with a highly spurious set of weights and lengths which were subsequently changed.
3. We have not been 'getting away' with anything because we have always posted the exact extended length ever since we have been selling the poles. In fact these lengths were posted in each case before the poles were even on the market. The reason that we have always posted extended length in metres is because when we launched the SLX range 5 years ago the main competitors (Ionics and X-Tel) also only posted their exact extended length in metres. There was little point in quoting it in ft and inches as most people (as we have seen) have difficulty relating the two measurements and therefore would be unable to make an exact comparison for purchasing purposes. We chose to give each size pole a name in ft to help in selecting the right pole for the UK market. Unlike Ionics who still name the pole after the reach we chose to go for the nearest actual size in feet once a gooseneck and brush are attached. We have always found that this has worked well for clients and has helped prevent confusion. We have also always quoted the reach of the pole in the spec chart to help clients trying to compare our products to the Ionics range (and previous Facelift range). Personally I do not like the reach measurement at all.
Why has your company been pulled up on it? Because nowhere has your company posted the accurate lengths just the name of the pole. Having got your company's new pole range this may prove difficult for your company though as I have noticed that at standard extension (silver band showing in the clamp window) the pole is 30cm shorter than when the overlaps have been over-extended by about 6cm - this is true on the Phoenix 26 anyway.
4.Mike has clearly posted in many places on the forum the full specification sheet which states that the 26UL is 1.3kg. We both know that this is not the case - I have put the 26UL on the scales and it is 1450g completely bare - not approx 1.3kg. I also have this comparative weighing on a video (against my poles), but think that it is best to wait for one of your company's retail clients to comment on this when they have also weighed it and they can then prove the stated weight as inaccurate as my credibility as a competitor is not obviously as good as some anonymous poster.
This is not personal in anyway (despite your long public-forum history with my firm and products) just a simple statement of fact as perceived by myself.
