[SherwoodCleaningSe]

Hi Guys,

I've been using electronic flow controllers for the past 5 1/2 years.  A couple of different major brands.  To begin with I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread for all the usual reasons; like the ability to adjust the flow to what ever you need, the fact that the battery should last longer, you can buy a bigger pump and not run it as hard and theoretically it should last a lot longer and I'm sure there are some other reasons as well.

However in recent times I've started to think differently for the following reasons; I hardly ever change my flow, I just turn the pump on and off,  I've noticed that the dead end detection varies through out the day depending on the charge in the battery thus changing pressure and also it's another thing to go wrong. 

The second point about the dead end detection is a real bug-bare, at the beginning of the battery is fully charged giving a higher voltage reading, for some reason this causes the flow controls to drop the dead end detection buy a few point causing the pumps to cycle, less pressure in the system and rubbish flow.  At the end of the day the battery getting empty and is reading lower voltage but now the pump dead end detection has raised by several points causing the cut off point to be much longer, increasing pressure and flow but also probably damaging the pumps, hose joints  and also battery.

I do use 2 pumps and controllers off of one battery which is probably not recommended by most manufactures, but also only have a 650L system.

I'm now thinking that for my next system, I'll simply buy the correct sized pumps for my flow, with a simple adjustable pressure switch and wire in an on off switch. Has anyone else noticed the same kind of problems, does my simplification of things sound like a good idea?

Simon.

[GoodFella2006]

I'm still using this.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=119907.0

[SherwoodCleaningSe]

Hi goodfella, how does that work with dead end detection, does it use the pressure switch on the pump?

Simon.

[Nathanael Jones]

I think the pressure switch is by far the best method for stopping the pump. Flow control is essential - but dead end detection just over complicates a very simple function.

[Roy Harding]

When I first started the flow controllers were not about. And I burnt out pressure switches in about a week. Your options were run a bypass.

I also found that your hose would swell like a string of sausages under pressure, and when you turned the flow on the first 15 sec you had a pressure washer until the pressure dropped.

I think now some of the pumps have an in built bye pass.

Roy  

[Spruce]

Hi Simon,

Why don't you take one of the controllers out of the system and use it and see what happens and how you get on with it. I always try things like this on the weekend on our house.

If you have a working pressure switch then the pump will soon cut out and if the pump does overpump then it will start to cycle. You won't do any damage to the pressure switch if this test is of short duration.

First thing to be sure about is that you have a working pressure switch that will cut the pump. As the thing with any contacts is that each time they open and close the current causes an arch which eventually will cause the contacts to 'weld' together. The arch created with a DC current is greater than that created by an AC current.

I would connect it up and then switch the tap off after you have pumped all the air out of the hose and watch the pump. If the pressure does build up more than your gut feel says it should, then immediately disconnect the power to the pump.

Nat uses a simple motor controller and his pressure switch on the pump to cut the power once he turns his tap off. He has also reduced the pressure on his pressure switch setting to cut out at about 65 psi rather than the 100 psi the current Shurflo pumps are set to. He says that this works fine for him and very reliable. On his controller he just reduces the pump speed to suit his application as and when. (I once put a pressure gauge on my shurflo pump and found that our Varistream pressure cutout was set at about 55 psi. which we were happy with at the time.)

Personally, our experience before we had a Varistream was failure of the microswitch in the pump which was costing a fortune to replace (in the days before we knew about the Maplin replacement.)

Our first unit was a trailer with 375 liters capacity and 4 x 25 liter containers in the van. We had 3mm jets and could polish off that 475 liters before 3pm in the afternoon. Sadly most of that water was wasted as the flow to the brush was far to fast.
When we got the first Varistream, I was able to do more work a day with less water. Most days I didn't touch the reserve in the back of the van.

I had an 85 amp leisure battery on the trailer and found I had to recharge it every night before we fitted the Varistream as I didn't trust how long it would last the following day if I didn't. After that it didn't need to be recharged each night, I did it every second night to be sure.
This trailer system was fitted with a on/off valve that we could reduce the flow to the brush head and divert the extra water back to the tank. That didn't work as the water tricked out on top floor windows if set right for ground floor windows.

Nowdays we know that our Shurflo pumps pull about 7 to 8 amps on full and reduce to 2.5 to 4 amps on our normal flow setting. You are going to use more current if you don't regulate the flow with a controller.

I'm afraid that memory can be very deceiving and looking back, we made so many changes to our equipment it is difficult to know what contributed to what. We had 2 leisure batteries fail on the trailer, each within a year. Was that because we were killing them with the extra pump demand or was it weather related? We have always got good service from our leisure batteries since then - is this because we now all use Varistreams?

I can't remember when we changed to 2mm jets exactly or if I replaced the 1/2" garden hose with 100 meters of minibore before of after fitting the Varistream in those early days, but my lasting experience is that the controllers were the way to go.

[Spruce]

I think the pressure switch is by far the best method for stopping the pump. Flow control is essential - but dead end detection just over complicates a very simple function.

Sorry Nat, you posted this while is was working on my long winded reply

[GoodFella2006]

Hi goodfella, how does that work with dead end detection, does it use the pressure switch on the pump?

Simon.

Sorry,i don't know what dead and detection means.

It's simply wired as

Battery -> Flow Controller -> Pump

And yes,i use the pressure switch on the pump,every time i disconnect my pole,pump stops.

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi goodfella, how does that work with dead end detection, does it use the pressure switch on the pump?

Simon.

Sorry,i don't know what dead and detection means.

It's simply wired as

Battery -> Flow Controller -> Pump

Hi Goodfella Dead end is an engineers term. It means the water flow has stopped. Current controllers have this feature so that when you stop the water flow be it with a tap kink the hose or other method the controller stops the pump.

If the pump continued to work against this blockage (stopped flow) the system would pressure up risking connectors and hose. Also by stopping the pump the draw on the battery is reduced.

Spruce has provided a definitive answer as to why pump controllers came into being
1. To stop pump pressure switches blowing
2. To reduce the pump speed and reduce water use
3. To increase battery life. Slowing the pump means you draw less current.

Nat has a well thought out system which works well. As with most things there is more than one answer.

I am interested in the original post as I want to get an opinion from our engineers. Certainly the ambient temperature will have an effect on the DE due to the change in hose wall stiffness. I am interested to see that falling voltage in the battery has an effect as described.

And yes,i use the pressure switch on the pump,every time i disconnect my pole,pump stops.

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi Guys,

I've been using electronic flow controllers for the past 5 1/2 years.  A couple of different major brands.  To begin with I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread for all the usual reasons; like the ability to adjust the flow to what ever you need, the fact that the battery should last longer, you can buy a bigger pump and not run it as hard and theoretically it should last a lot longer and I'm sure there are some other reasons as well.

However in recent times I've started to think differently for the following reasons; I hardly ever change my flow, I just turn the pump on and off,  I've noticed that the dead end detection varies through out the day depending on the charge in the battery thus changing pressure and also it's another thing to go wrong. 

The second point about the dead end detection is a real bug-bare, at the beginning of the battery is fully charged giving a higher voltage reading, for some reason this causes the flow controls to drop the dead end detection buy a few point causing the pumps to cycle, less pressure in the system and rubbish flow.  At the end of the day the battery getting empty and is reading lower voltage but now the pump dead end detection has raised by several points causing the cut off point to be much longer, increasing pressure and flow but also probably damaging the pumps, hose joints  and also battery.

I do use 2 pumps and controllers off of one battery which is probably not recommended by most manufactures, but also only have a 650L system.

I'm now thinking that for my next system, I'll simply buy the correct sized pumps for my flow, with a simple adjustable pressure switch and wire in an on off switch. Has anyone else noticed the same kind of problems, does my simplification of things sound like a good idea?

Simon.

Simon hope this helps

If the dead end calibration is set too low you will get false dead end detection and the pump will cycle. The calibration does not actually change with the battery voltage but the change in voltage does affect the pump current and this is what the dead end detection monitors. Using Autocal first thing in the morning should fix this problem.
 
In our tests here we have found that a drop in voltage will slightly increase the dead end detection time but this change is minuscule. Certainly this tiny increase will not cause any extra wear on pump, battery or fittings. And remember that as the voltage drops the pump will run slow, dropping flowrates and pressures. Even without a controller and relying on a pressure switch it will take much longer to operate at these lower pressures.

The problems you are having sound like your battery may be struggling to cope with two pumps and is possibly getting a little old and tired. Ideally the battery should not be operated the below 11.0V and ideally we would recommend having one battery per pump.

Two pumps on one battery double the current draw and will mean the battery voltages falls much faster.

[Lee GLS]

Simon, haven't you got the vyair pumps? I found my vyair pump a lot more touchy with the CAL and DE compared to the shurflow pumps. We have one of each running in the van with the gardiner liquid logic (spring controller) and the shurflow pump never needs touching, whereas the vyair, especially in the winter need tweaking.

[SherwoodCleaningSe]

I am running Vyair pumps and I have noticed the problem more so since I switched to them, before I was using flojet, but these were getting old and less efficient.  I have tried the pump with just the pressure switch, no flow controller, and although the flow is too fast the pressure switch on it's own seems to control the pump so much nicer which is why I was wondering if anyone else has given it a go.

I realize that other things can cause the same effect like warm weather, hot water and so on, but I've managed to isolate it down to the charge in the battery.  If I forget to charge the battery it plays up at the beginning of the day.

I'm not knocking flow controllers, I'm just wondering if any one else has tried it another way and as per usual Nat has and show that it works.

Simon.

[Scrimble]

if its the charge in the battery then why dont you use the flow controller with the built in battery charger? i have one and since fitting it i've never touched the leisure battery in the van since

[SherwoodCleaningSe]

if its the charge in the battery then why dont you use the flow controller with the built in battery charger? i have one and since fitting it i've never touched the leisure battery in the van since

I have a spit charge relay and a 135 amp/hr battery.  Trouble is if you don't move your van the battery won't charge.  I have a lotof compact work so only move my truck a few times each day.  The battery isn't really getting that low.

Simon.

[Nathanael Jones]

I use the pressure switch on my 100psi pump with an analogue flow controller,.. but I've adjusted it down to minimum (60psi according to the online manual) and have been using the same pump for 5 years without once having to change the pressure switch.

[chrismyrie]

Analogue for me too. No silly battery warnings and no 'dead end' cut outs. I had a digital one once, it was always telling me that my battery was duff, I nearly went out and brought 80 odd quids worth off new battery. Luckily I got rid of it and went back to analogue with a pole tap...happy days

[Tom White]

I've got an electronic flow controller, but I don't use it.  I prefer just using the pressure switch.  I use 6mm microbore hose and I get a perfect flow - nice and fast - without the hassle of a flow controller.

Try it, seriously, before you buy one.  You just work quickly; it's class. 

[mark dew]

I've used the 1st varistream (on 1st freedom trolley) for 2 or 3 years. I must admit to not changing any settings on it. But i found the flow quite eratic when starting off.
For the last 4 years i just have battery, flojet and pole. The flow is always high and very consistent from the beginning.
I have an on/offf valve between the pump and the water tank. I use this for flow control. Very simple and i get very few problems.
I have 400litre tank which gives me roughly 6 hours of working time with the flow on full. I am using 2 6v batteries linked up. I can get a week before i need to charge the battery. Although i recharge it midweek which keeps the flow quite high.
I haven't tried any of the newer flow controllers, so can't comment on these. Although ther are some on here (whose opinions i respect) who use flow controllers and have set them up properly, who are very happy with their set up.
I am on my 2nd flojet pump after 6 1/2 years and still going strong. Am also on my 2nd battery. The 1st lasted 4 years.

[[GQC] Tim]

Thankfully I haven't had any problems from my (1st edition) Digital Varistream and 100 PSI shurflo pump. When switching to Hot you need to fiddle around a bit with the pressure setting, but no problems there. Pump is getting a bit noisy, but after about 4,5 years I can't complain I guess. Wonder when it will go.

I've never used the pressure switch, but like the idea of an analogue control with adjusted pressure switch.

[stuart mc]

I've got an electronic flow controller, but I don't use it.  I prefer just using the pressure switch.  I use 6mm microbore hose and I get a perfect flow - nice and fast - without the hassle of a flow controller.

Try it, seriously, before you buy one.  You just work quickly; it's class. 

same here