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  • Posts: 77
ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« on: January 23, 2006, 05:16:06 pm »
I need a new 18 foot plle, 3x6foot. i`ve used glass fibre residential pole for a year and its now pretty much unusable. what poles do u use for this height. is it better to go for an alluminium pole. which is the easiest to use. please give me helpful websites. thanks. ??? ??? ??? ???

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 05:25:19 pm »
I recomend the ally pole that cleantech do.
very cheap, light , and easy to use.
ask for the 18' 3 section unger pole. you can buy it with or without hose and also without brush if you can cannibalise your old pole and save yourself a few quid.
www.cleantech.co.uk
Russ

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  • Posts: 77
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2006, 05:51:40 pm »
i`ve just been takking to a man from brodex who sells the eco-lite poles , says that they r more durable than previous glass fibre poles. "they`ve been baked" being the science. has anyone been using these. look good for price, if indeed they r more durable. any comments?

DASERVICES

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2006, 05:56:27 pm »

  Got mine from http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/, cheapest by far
  and good quality.

H h20

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2006, 06:37:15 pm »

  Got mine from http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/, cheapest by far
  and good quality.
Yep got one last week from there,iv`e got another coming this week,Gaz

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  • Posts: 77
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 11:04:29 am »
is the residential head on those gardiner poles of good quality. i probably wont get the professional gooseneck as it doesnt fold down and fit in the van

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 12:55:05 pm »
All fibre Glass Fibre (GF)and Carbon Fibre (CF) poles are made by a single manufacturer called Exel in Finland.  The only difference between them is the head assembly, which pole suppliers put on.  Most suppliers add an "off the shelf" brush like a Vikan, some manufacture their own.

Exel Website



A Carbon Fibre pole is not usually lighter than fibre glass, but it is much more rigid.  This becomes important when using a pole longer than about 30ft.  (And conversely, getting a carbon fibre pole shorter than this might be a waste of money.  Glass fibre will usually serve perfectly well)

In addition to the standard pole sizes available, one manufacturer, Ionic Systems, commissioned the manufacture of a pole which only they sell, the Ergolite.  This is about 30% lighter than the equivalent sized CF pole, and has thinner profiles, therefore making it easier to grip.  It is expensive, and not really necessary for lengths shorter than 35ft.  The 45ft Ergolite is particularly useful, the thinner profiles allowing much better control at that height, and still in 6ft sections so is easy to extend.

Aluminium poles are somewhat different to both Fibre Glass and Carbon Fibre Poles.  They are generally lighter than their equivalent sized GF and CF counterparts, and usually have thinner profiles.  The two main suppliers of Aluminium poles in the UK are Tucker Pole Systems UK  (the UK distributor of Tucker Poles, an american company) who import  their poles from the Tucker Factory in the USA, and Omnipole UK who are a UK distibutor of Coress, manufacturers of the 'Powerwand'.

Omnipole, Stream Supplies and Outreach (as well as supplying CF and GF poles) also sell an aluminium pole manufactured in the USA by a company called Coress.  The "Powerwand" is a modular pole, allowing sections to be added or taken away as necessary, and has a good selection of attatchments available:



www.coress.com
The "Powerwand" (or Powerpole as it is referred to by Omnipole) is available in both low pressure (as used for window cleaning) and high pressure versions (more suited to pressure washing).

One of the main differences between Composite poles (CF and GF) and aluminium poles is the clamping mechanism.  Composite poles usually have "quick release clamps" which consist of a small lever which is simply flicked up to loosen and allow the pole to be extended or retracted.  In the picture below, you can see the clamps on the Universal pole (in the middle) is the one most commonly supplied for window cleaning.




The clamps on the Tucker pole have to be tightend and loosened by means of a small tool (the "Tucker Tool") and work by bending the metal of the larger profile tightly against the smaller one.  This type of clamp was criticized in the HSL report on the use of water-fed poles as inconvenient and often meant that the poles were used at the wrong angle (which could cause muscle strain) because the clamps were fiddly to adjust(especially in cold weather) and the "tucker tool" was easy to loose.

The Tucker Clamp.  A tool is needed to tighten and loosen the worm gear

The Powerwand (or 'Powerpole') has screw clamps that are twisted together to toghten/loosen them.


Another important difference between Aluminium poles and composites is their rigidity.  Now, don't be fooled here, the more rigid a pole is the easier it is to use.  Aluminium poles are more flexible than CF and GF poles.  I have seen aluminium poles advertised as "with unique flex action", what a joke.  "Flex action" is exactly what you don't want when using a pole.  For this reason, aluminium poles become less practical than composites for longer poles.

Stream supplies have also recently started to supply their own pole, which is very similar to the Tucker pole, but with a different clamping mechanism.

Here are a few suppliers of both Fibre Glass and CF poles are as follows (in order of company size)

Ionic Systems
www.ionicsystems.com

Omnipole
www.omnipole.com

Tucker
www.tuckerpolesystemsuk.co.uk

Pure2o
www.pure2o.co.uk

Brodex
www.brodexbms.co.uk

Stream
www.streampole.co.uk

Aquatec
www.window-tools.com
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

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  • Posts: 77
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 06:12:27 pm »
thanks some helpful websites. went for a gardiner pole ;)

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 06:15:08 pm »
what an incredibly detailed and informative post, the best so far.
the only thing i can add is the reference of the "flex" action.
flex is a pain when you get longer than 18' but not noticeable at lower lengths. tucker poles are made of an aircraft grade alluminium and therefore are very light and also more rigid than any composite pole i have ever used. i do however agree that the clamps are a real drag and slows you down alot if you are only doing small amounts and then moving on (i.e domestics) but dont really affect the time on site on large commercial jobs. they are also very easy to repair on site with something as simple as a junior hacksaw.
if money was no issue,i would definately go for ionics "ergolite" as any pole is heavy by the end of the day, but for basic domestics up to 3 storeys i use twistlock alluminium 3 parts from unger that i adapt myself.
again, philip i would like to commend you on a fantastic post that will undoubtedly answer anybody's question on poles and where to get them from.

Old_Master

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 08:08:32 pm »
Express Cleaning Supplies  your hosts also stock the complete Omnipole PowerPole range as does Essentually Pure,Cleantech and Andrews Water Treatment as well as the companies mentioned above Stream Supplies and Outreach.

Phillip just to  put you in the right on a couple of points Coress supply Omnipole exclusively in the British Isles with the PowerPole 9061 T6 Aerospace tubing and the clamps (we also sorce aerospace tubing from Aluminium mills in both Canada and the USA) the majority of the unique and patented fittings are manufactured in our engineering workshops in South Croydon, several members of the forums have visited these and photographed the engineering in progress. Justin Ruggles posted numorous photographs of the manufacturing processes much to the delight of many members who enthused over the traditional milling, lathes etc.

Mike Boxall will be happy to provided quotations for the whole range of Omnipole equipment including the new trailer system being built exclusively for Express Cleaning Supplies.

Mick (UHPS)

  • Posts: 161
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2006, 09:49:11 pm »
Stonking post Philip  8)

I am about to buy a new pole and have been trying to work out what pole does what? how much? and where to buy from. I aint decided but it gives me something to think about.

Thanks

Mick

Oh BTW Charlotte's quite taken by Glyn's tackle at Omnipole :o, Angolina's undecided at the moment....... :P

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 12:24:58 pm »
Quote
Is the order determined by turnover or by profit, how did you come to the conclusion of company size  ?

There are a number of methods to measure the size of a company.  Turnover is often used, as is net assets, net profit, net liquidity etc..

The abbreviated accounts submitted to companies house consist of a balance sheet and certain accounting notes.  Since all of the WFP supply companies qualify as "small" under the FRSSE (Financial Reporting Standards for Smaller Entities) they do not have to supply a profit & loss account.

This being the case, turnover is not shown, but net profit is.  This is how the companies whose accounts are available measure up:


 .               .                .            .    2005          2004        2003
Net Profit

Ionic Systems       .                 .    475,901     366,459    454,560

Omnipole             .                  .     80,266        6,733      15,760

Aquafactors Direct.  .           .      .  NYA           57,341    50,849
(Tucker Pole UK)

Brodex .        .              .          . . 15,443        (20,741)   13,438


Notes:
Figures in Brackets indicate a loss
NYA = Not yet available


As well as these raw numbers, there are other considerations.  Aquafactors Direct (who distribute the Tucker Pole in the UK) do not only supply poles.  Their business also consists of domestic water treatment systems and their maintenece, so the figures in the accounts will include a material non-WFP element.

Looking at these numbers, its a good picture of just how small the WFP market in the UK really is.  Many WFP companies at the smaller end are making less profit than an average one-man-band window cleaner.  This being the case, its perhaps no surprise that we often see cobbled together systems for sale built by window cleaners who have jumped on the bandwagon to try to make a quick pound.  Just look at ebay.

Its also clear that the UK WFP industry is still dominated by just one company.  A look at the accounts of the others gives, in my opinion, a good insight as to why no other company has taken on a crash-testing program.  Its a simple matter of cost.

There are, of course, many other small WFP supply companies that are not limited companies and therefore the accounts are not available at CH.  Nearly all of these are window cleaners who have now started to put together systems.  Judging by what I have seen of these smaller companies, I estimate that none of them has net assets greater than £15k

What these accounts also show is that last year, Omnipole leap-frogged over Tucker to become the No2 WFP supplier in the UK.  Well done Glyn!

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

John Conroy


Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 04:46:37 pm »
Quote
The final Net figure is very misleading.A company can keep all profits on the accounts and not draw a salary so therefor make its profits seem very good.
In reality Directors draw a huge salary and leave very little in the business.

With the greatest respect, David, what you have just said demonstrates that you know very little about how the financial accounts of limited companies are prepared.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 05:27:14 pm »
Quote
You for instance can pay a wage to a family member for more or less any amount you want.

Actually, no you can't.  When a wage is paid through PAYE (as it is with limited companies) you can't just put through any amount you want.  It has to reconcile to the PAYE account, and the finance has to actually move in order for the bank and PAYE accounts to match.

What you are talking about is to do with the preparation of sole trader and partnership accounts, which is very different and not subject to the Companies Act.

Quote
Also there is investment back into the business,purchase of vehicles ,machines ,stock etc.
These are capital items and do not affect the profit and loss account.

Specifically, the accounting entries for these items would be:

Vehicles:
Cr Bank, Dr Motor Vehicles (Both balance sheet accounts)

Machines:
Cr Bank, Dr Fixed Assets (Both Balance sheet accounts)

Stock
Cr Bank, Dr Stock (Both balance sheet accounts)

As you see, none of the items you have listed would have any effect on the profit and loss account at all, let alone the net profit.

I hate to say it David, but the more you say the more you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge about even the most basic principles of financial accounting.

What I have posted has nothing to do with Bias, the accounts are all publicly available and they speak for themselves.

What you have said however:

Quote
Omnipole sell more systems than any other manufacturer by far.

Is based on what information, may I ask?  If you have discovered a way to extract this information from the accounts then I would be delighted to hear it.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

John Conroy

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 05:53:51 pm »
Figures are misleading as it is showing profit only, unto profit and lose accounts are shown then a full picture can be obtained.

   

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE New
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 06:32:39 pm »
David,

I am not sure why or how this post has become something of a personal attack, and I can assure you that it was not my intention to make you look stupid.

Quote
You hear everyweek of big multinational companies operating at a loss from time to time.

Yes, and this is why turnover and net assets are also used as a financial measure.  Net assets are viewable on the publicly available accounts, and if you really do dislike the "net profit" measure then this is the one to use.

click here to see why

If you were to see the net assets for the companies mentioned then you'd see they gave exactly the same picture as that of the net profit.  (The accounts cost £1 each to download from Companies House, I invite you to look at the net assets figure from each of them)

I contributed to this topic to give information to someone who wanted to know about poles, and they obviously appreciated that because they thanked me for it.

I havent commented on this forum for many weeks, and the last thing I expected was a big argument. 

Quote
You want to play ball do you,well come on we will play ball.

I am still a little puzzled why you have decided to use it to invite an argument.  I dont mind if you happen to disagree with my opinion, but you cant argue with the facts and they are publicly available from companies house.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to the average window cleaner what the size of the pole supplier he uses is, as long as he is satisfied with the products and services he receives.

Quote
I have got my spies

Okay then

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2006, 06:47:34 pm »
Quote
Is the order determined by turnover or by profit, how did you come to the conclusion of company size  ?

There are a number of methods to measure the size of a company.  Turnover is often used, as is net assets, net profit, net liquidity etc..

The abbreviated accounts submitted to companies house consist of a balance sheet and certain accounting notes.  Since all of the WFP supply companies qualify as "small" under the FRSSE (Financial Reporting Standards for Smaller Entities) they do not have to supply a profit & loss account.

This being the case, turnover is not shown, but net profit is.  This is how the companies whose accounts are available measure up:


 .               .                .            .    2005          2004        2003
Net Profit

Ionic Systems       .                 .    475,901     366,459    454,560

Omnipole             .                  .     80,266        6,733      15,760

Aquafactors Direct.  .           .      .  NYA           57,341    50,849
(Tucker Pole UK)

Brodex .        .              .          . . 15,443        (20,741)   13,438

PURE FREEDOM            ... 2 & 6pence   NADDA      NUFFINK


Notes:
Figures in Brackets indicate a loss
NYA = Not yet available


As well as these raw numbers, there are other considerations.  Aquafactors Direct (who distribute the Tucker Pole in the UK) do not only supply poles.  Their business also consists of domestic water treatment systems and their maintenece, so the figures in the accounts will include a material non-WFP element.

Looking at these numbers, its a good picture of just how small the WFP market in the UK really is.  ( Is it really Phillip?  ;)

Many WFP companies at the smaller end are making less profit than an average one-man-band window cleaner. Sigghhh so.. so  true   :'( This being the case, its perhaps no surprise that we often see cobbled together systems for sale built by window cleaners who have jumped on the bandwagon to try to make a quick pound.  Just look at ebay. Eh sell on Ebay its GOT to be rubbish !!!   ::)

Its also clear that the UK WFP industry is still dominated by just one company. Watch this space!!!   :D  A look at the accounts of the others gives, in my opinion, a good insight as to why no other company has taken on a crash-testing program.  Its a simple matter of cost.

There are, of course, many other small WFP supply companies that are not limited companies and therefore the accounts are not available at CH.  Nearly all of these are window cleaners who have now started to put together systems.  Judging by what I have seen of these smaller companies, I estimate that none of them has net assets greater than £15k :( Checkin pockets right now

What these accounts also show is that last year, Omnipole leap-frogged over Tucker to become the No2 WFP supplier in the UK.  Well done Glyn!

-Philip

The times are changing. There is no doubt about that. In general the prospective WFP buyer is now far more knowledgable and as such realises the market value of goods and services. They know value for money far better than in the past. An educated market place WILL make a big difference to who is who amongst WFP suppliers. Sorry about playing about a bit with you post Phillip. I am in this to bring real value to the market. I am not saying that anyone else doesn't. Value can mean different things to different people.

How on earth did a question regarding poles get to this stage?  I wonder  :)


I get a real sense of satisfaction from what I am doing right now. I deal daily with the salt of the earth...  WINDOW CLEANERS  :)  The moment it becomes a chore if it ever does then.. I am OFF!!

Been there.. done it.. worn the teeshirt in corporate politics and battles.  I am staying well clear of all that and concentrating on my own business. If anyone else makes more or less profit.. None of my business as long as I am happy with my bottom line.

OK off to get me bread and scrape now  :'(

Andrew

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 06:52:43 pm »
Philip

you were trying to make me look stupid.  

The net profit does not show the full picture.


anyway to add to Philips post he mentions the exclusive Ionics Lite range .I would also add that Brodex do a very similar range of poles which they claim are lighter and a lot cheaper.

See for yourself

http://www.brodexbms.co.uk/assets/waterfedpoles-ad.pdf

Incidently i have got an18` ionics residential pole about £110,i have had it for about 3 months and it is now showing signs of wear the protective but cap has worn away on one side and the glass fibre is now wearing down as well.
It has large jets and a good brush head but a bit on the narrow side.

I have also got a 18`Brodex proffesional pole £250 which is a very strong sturdy pole with a good gooseneck, and alluminium butt cap ,it seems so much more durable although it feels twice as heavy as the Ionics but it came with a bad brush head which i think was just a faulty one.it is not the one in the above link.


sair

  • Posts: 682
Re: ADVISE ON POLES PLEASE
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 07:26:17 pm »
hi guys .

i use power pole up to 36 .then above that i use carbon fiber which we have adapted to be use with power pole diferent size brush heads  .

i personally like the adaptability of power pole and the narrower tubes as i have small hands and also the quick release heads allowing good storage in the smaller van.

i cant comment on the ergo light only ever held one, never used one so cant comment on the flex and durability of them  working at heights the weight does appeal to me , wouldnt mind trying one for a month or so but  the price puts me of , unless ruben wouln t mind lending me a demo one i wont be having one in the forseeable future i ll just struggle on having a workout with the 60 carbon
kind regards tony (Essentially pure ltd.)
Essentially Pure Ltd