[G & R Services]

Hi Guys

Im after some help i have been asked to quote for the following this will be our first office cleaning contract:


Office Cleaning

2 x Cleaners - Mon - Fri - 2 hours per night

Reception, Training Room, Boardroom, Kitchen Area, 4 Meeting Room, 50 - 60 Office Based Staff.

Im waiting on confirmation as to whether This will be to provide Staff and all cleaning equipment/chemicals or just staff.

I was thinking £15 P/H just to supply staff and £17 p/h if it is to include equipment/chemicals.

What sort of price would you go in at.....?? (Sensible Responses Please)

[petemg]

hi ya matey there is a publication as regarding cleaning contracts. not sure who by , googel:s your freind,

[Jonny jones]

Hi

I think that you are a bit expensive, try aroun the £10 per hr per person per hr, and even then you might not get it

Thanx Jonny

[Phild]

Yes Jonny is right. On a job this size you need to make whatever you are paying out in wages & holiday pay equate to around 65% of your charge exc VAT. Another thing to think of is that the two jobs together are 20 hours per week. With the changes to tax credits from April many of your target staff will need to be working 24 hours per week to be eligible for tax credits. That makes the job more worthwhile to someone but remember you will then have to check whether you are in the NIC band for employers which (from memory so check!) is about £135 quid a week now - 20 hours at say £6.50 - you are OK otherwise you have to add 13.8% employers contribution to your costs on that bit of the wage over £135.

Finally .... TUPE. Are any staff being transferred? That is a thread in itself.

Best of luck

Phil D

[Scotbrite]

Hi,
I'm with Jonny on this one. My standard rate is £10ph. Don't think in this climate you will get any more. But good on you if you do,
Cheers,
Ron

[Paul H]

I read i great article somewhere that basically said that if you where charging less than say 12.50 p/hr what kind of services do you expect to get... where you getting the cleaners for the full say 2/3 hrs per day that where being charged...it outlined overheads like wages / materials etc.. it also said companies pitch in low for the work then gradually phase in increase or like said above the satff where on the next site doing the next job when you are paying for them... have sniff around sure you'll find it.... charge your £15 - 17 whatever but outline your costs against the lesser ones.... maybe as above..

ive had the chance for quite a decent contract but wil inherit the staff who are doing a dross job and possible redundancy costs etc... for those staff .. TUPE... i would love the contract .... but not the staff!.. so maybe someone can advise on ways around this for either me....or the comonay wishing to dispense on their cleaning companies services

[Scotbrite]

In the job market just now there are thousands of people available to work fro minimum wage who will do a good job. Although its great if you can get more £10ph is a reasonable rate to get & be able to get sustainable business. As for the tupe workers you mentioned Paul, i don't think there is much you can do with this, They have a legal right to the job if they wish to transfer ( on exactly the same conditions as they currently have) the only thing you could reasonably do is to take them on, assess there work standard & start a proper disciplinary process ( to the letter of the law) if you want changes. Alternatively ( a bit sly maybe !! but - - talk to the client & have them END the current contract, give a few days break & then issue you with a NEW contract. This should avoid the tupe problems,
Cheers,
Ron

[Paul H]

Scotbrite...

I was under the impression that they couldnt just end the contract as they (the company hiring the service) then had to show how they are going to continue and how with the cleaning service? ( i recall getting some legal advice and this is what i recall they said)...

If this is not true then then food for though...

[Phild]

I think you are probably right Paul. I am always very very careful with TUPE as we were one of the the first companies to get penalised for it when it was first introduced and they were still testing out case law. Cutting to the chase we ended losing big style at an employment tribunal. The staff had actually worked direct for a large PLC, been made redundant, we then came in to do the cleaning having never met the staff or knowing anything about them and got fined something like £14k and that must have been the backend of the 80's when £14k was a lot of money. I could never get my head around it.

Phil D

[Paul H]

Phil so say for example your staff on your contracts are protected by TUPE...that is you lose a contract and the  new firm inherits your staff?? if im picking this up right...

so how do you ever lose contract?.. what if the terms expire on the contract and they dispense with your services..or tender it out to a new firm...your staff (or old staff) will still keep a job?...and the new firm inherits redundancy packages etc... or do you keep your staff and put them on new jobs / existing jobs?.....

I need this in simple terms..  chance of a contract but not with the amount of staff or staff that are there at present.... whta if i can show i can provide a better/same service with less staff?

More so what if the company want to scale / trim back on there existing budget ... say they are paying for 5 cleaners p/hr and having reviewed it now only want 3???...

How do they work that and how do you as service provider respond? 

[Phild]

Hi Paul,

We have a simple crib sheet we give estimators so they get an understanding of TUPE legislation. I don't have my copy with me but will post it on this thread in the next couple of days.

Coming back to your question. If you take on a contract that was previously cleaned by another company the staff transfer to your employ on exactly the same terms and conditions and retaining all their employment rights e.g. if they had been employed on the site for 10 years it's as if they had worked for you for those 10 years. You can change the way the job is staffed for economical and technical reasons but you will have to follow full employment legislation to remove the excess staff. So for example you would have to go through all the redundancy meetings, give appropriate notice  and even pay redundancy money if it is due. You can see now why I always exhort people to get full TUPE information so you can see what liabilities you are taking on particularly pension contributions which can equate to 34% of salary!

I hope this helps but as I say I will post a more complete crib sheet in a couple of days.

Regards,

Phil D

[Paul H]

Phil yeah get a grasp now... however one more little thing..

say the company employs your firm and cleaners...eg say 5 cleaners 5 days a week 2 hours per day (something like that) and the cost is £xxxx per week to the company..

Having reviewed their budget and in the current climate they wish to save ££ on their weekly cleaning costs but obviously want maintain some kind of cleaning service from yourselves and decide they only want say 3 cleaners per day per week to provide a new tailored cleaning service to meet their budget & costs and needs... what happens then mate?? .. you cant dictate what they get or what they want can you ? or can you?... they are your employees so do you then make them redundant or does the hiring company have some responsibility ( which i doubt)... after all they are paying so surely they can have what they want and are prepared to pay for.. and if they wish to scale that down to save money then thats their right surely??

[Phild]

If your customer wants you to cut costs and the only way you can do it is by bulleting staff you have to go down the redundancy route but the chances are that given the staff turnover rates in the cleaning industry you may have staff who only have a few months service under their belts. You are not allowed to use the 'last in first out' way of choosing who to make redundant but by carefully setting the criteria you are going to choose who to make redundant it is possible to pick out the staff you want. This is a whole subject in itself as every meeting, the criteria you are using etc has to be recorded in writing so that if you end up in an ET you can prove you have dealt with people fairly. Being pragmatic it's often easier and quicker to go the disciplinary route.

Phil D

[Paul H]

So basically if the company want to trim back on their cleaning budget.. then no liability or responsibility to YOUR cleaning employees lies with them?? is that right mate.... its an interesting minfeld !

[mondeal]

Hi Guys

Im after some help i have been asked to quote for the following this will be our first office cleaning contract:


Office Cleaning

2 x Cleaners - Mon - Fri - 2 hours per night

Reception, Training Room, Boardroom, Kitchen Area, 4 Meeting Room, 50 - 60 Office Based Staff.

Hi.
Is it possible to do this job in 2 hours per night? I think need more staff.

[Phild]

That is a whole other subject Mondeal. We have retail contracts where staff are expected to clean nearly 10,000 ft2 per hour, nurseries at 1200, general offices from 2000 - 4000'. It all comes down to the specification. There are some great older threads on this subject which are worth spending time on. Phil D

[mondeal]

Thanks, for you answers, Phild.
We are using m2, you are using ft2. 10000ft2=300m2. than do not need more staff. sorry.