[H h20]

You don`t need to buy it all at once,i did loads of research first,then started to buy bits at a time,and i am now well past 6 months of wfp and thank god no more ladders i am much more relaxed and VERY MUCH SAFER when i am working,don`t make lame excuses when it`s your business,Gaz

[Sir Squeaky]

I don't need excuses if I just don't want or need it.
I'm not trying to find reasons, they are the facts in my situation.

They were all valid reasons, I thought they were easy enough to understand.

[dai]

What is a traditional window cleaner? When I first did the job in the 1950's We used chamoise mops or skins, and scrim. Before they used scrims they either used 2 leathers, one for cleaning one for polshing, or a leather followed by a duster when the glass was dry. this was the traditional way. Scrim was a wonderfull material[and still is]. It made the job much easier and quicker. When used properly, clean and damp, it gave a far superior finish.
Then came squeegies. This was not the traditional way of cleaning, using soap suds and a windsreen wiper. A traditional guy would never dream of letting soap come anywhere near his leather or scim. These had to be washed in clean soapless water.
Gradually as they began fitting larger panes in windows the sqeegie was adopted.
 A break in tradition but progress non the less.
Now we have WFP. It makes the job quicker, safer, and does a better job than I could ever do on seaside, salt encrusted glass. Anyone who works coastal areas will tell you that. Just touch your scrim on a salt laden frame and it is contaminated. It will leave marks all over the place. Even when doing bottoms only with a blade, I have a bucket full of dirty scrims every night, thats why I have at least 30 on the van. I don't use them to mop sills either, I use old bits of towel for that.
If I'm not a traditional window cleaner what am I? Did a joiner become something else when he used an electric drill for the first time? Did a farmer become something else when he bought his first tractor?
Tools change. People don't.
The bottom line is, there are guys out there that have been using WFP for years on domestic work, and his clients are prepared to pay him for doing it, month after month, after month. Dai

[Ian_Giles]

by midnight this thread will be locked, its been a cracker tonight, lots of sensible replies.

Not long left if you want to reply!!
Get your final points in now!!!

 

Ian

Oh, just went to post and Roger has already done one!

Even for you Rog there is an option, ok it may be beyond your means at present, but were I in your specific position I would go for a trailer mount, 350l litre tank and use either the inlaws or parents place for water production.
A submersible pump to transfer water from static tank to trailer tank...I can fill my 650l tank in ten minutes, and that is pumping it 45m up the garden.
No heavy lugging of water barrels involved at all.

Providing your parents or inlaws aren't on a meter you shouldn't have a problem.

350l should last you a day and a half, maybe even 2 days. all you do is walk out the house, hitch up your trailer (if you've taken it off) drive off and work, and every other day spend 10 minutes filling up your water.

Yeah, I know, not a snowballs chance of you doing it, but there is always an option for just about anyone.
And there is more than one way of raising finance too, doesn't have to be an overdraft or a bank loan.

You can do it through credit cards and interest free credit, and keep swapping cards and transfering your balance.
I know one guy who is paying for his brand new van in this way.
And yo ucan vary your payments to suit your pocket too, providing you make at least the minimum payment.

I've got food to eat!

Ian

[Jeff Brimble]

If you are trad and want to keep your options open for the future, dont knock wfp to your customers. Once you do you then have no way of going forward to wfp at a later date because you have already told your customers that wfp is rubbish.

[chris@c.m.s]

Ian you know you cant lock it its way to relevent 

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

I think WFP is a brilliant Idea and:

I WANT ONE!!!

BUT:

I realy can't afford it right now.
Just bought a fresh car.
Need to replace the roof on the garage and clear it out (to accomodate the static RO Kit).
My priorities first!!
UNLESS.............................................


Dear Santa,


Please can I have a Water Fed Pole System?
I have been a realy GOOD boy all year

Thankyou
David Salkeld

[Morph]

I like the way you stand firm Rog.  This is my last on this thread

Well that's nice if you haven't already got a big overdraft!

Do not go into further debt.  Be in the black before any new business venture

Besides which, if I did go that way I'd want a van, so I could carry enough water to last my week.

You will need a minimum 1,500 litres for a week's work.  I don't care what anyone else says

I'm not spending unpaid time every day lugging water about with my bad back, and filling tanks.

To be fair, you have this bit wrong Rog.  No need to lug anything but a hose.  Even that is more exhausting than carrying a bucket, but less repetitive strain than the mop and squeegee.  Don't be lugging water containers.  Leave that to the ex military like Banzai Tosh!  Respect man!

I'd just want to fill a big tank from the tap once a week and that's it.
And that's still more work than I have to do now.

That can be done, but too big a van.  Smaller van, smaller tank.  All you need to do is connect a hose and turn a tap!!

I just chuck some scrims in my pouches and stick my bucket under the tap and I'm off.

Yep, you've got me there, that bit is so easy.  I miss it.  You remind me of it.

I've got no room in my garden for a tank and I don't want my car wet inside.

I haven't entered my garden space.  But my newly purchased van is soaking wet.  I start it up and turn the heater full on to dry it out for a while before I start.
Meanwhile my wife climbs into our, now bone dry, clean smelling car, and heads off saying have a nice day.

Just too many hassles for me.

email me if you want

There. I've given some good reasons there, not just excuses.

Good reasons.  You have my respect.  And just in case anyone thinks otherwise, there is no hidden adgenda.  Keep it up Rog! (There is a place for you.  I envy you in a way.  Like I do other things that stuck to the traditional way)
But bear in mind, wfp is not a trend.

I am making a fair bit more money, already.  But I understand too if you are making enough.  After all, you can only wear 1 pair of shoes at a time, and sleep in one bed.  When you're not in one you're in the other.

Pj

Pj

Pj

Cheers for the bit of support PJ.
Appreciated mate.

Read carefully Rog.  I'm on your side

Pj

[David Halford]

Squeaky Clean

If you canvassed up an extra 100 houses it might take a few months but that would effectivley pay for a new van and system.

I dont think you will find a van with a big enough payload to fill it with enough water for the week. Depends how many houses you clean , but i use 600 ltrs a day to clean about 40-50 houses.

Filling the van is not that much of a hassle. With a vanmount system  all your have to do is plug the hose to your van at the end of the day to fill it ready for the next day. I use to find loading the car with the ladders every morning more of a hassle.

With the new WAHR and the fact i can earn so much more money, changing over to wfp system has been the best choice i have ever made.

It is your choice but any window cleaner can afford to make the change when the the return on your investment is so good. That is the beauty of window cleaning if you want more work you just have to go and get it.

[neil100]

I used wfp for the first time on wensday morning.

3rd floor windows. One customer came out with a cup of tea, my money and a tip for crimbo.

She said " I hope you dont mind me saying, I know you have spent a lot of money on your new system, but I dont like it."

" what dont you like about it? " I repelied, as I gulped down some warm amber nectar.

"Well when you cleaned them last time, thier were tiny spots on the windows." she said with a twinkle in her eye.

"ummmmmmmmmmm, Is that the only reason you dont like it?"  

"Yes, I dont think this new system is as good as the old way of doing things, You allways did such a good job."

SO I lowered my half empty cup of amber nectar, Looked her straight in the eye, smiled and said as politley as I could, " Thats really strange, I never had my new system last time, I did it the old way, Good job I'm changing then"

Her facial reaction was a picture.

Clean windows how you want, but dont knock it till you've tryed.

It's hard to explain how good sex is to a virgin, He just wont understand, Then when you tell him it gets better with practice, You know your advice is falling on death ears.

Nel.

[poleman]

Good read thank you chaps (Post of the Year)

Andy

[williamx]

You will always find people who don't like changes, that is life.

Wfp is not the end of window cleaning but a continuance of it.

In time there will be more tools that will enhance the window cleaning trade, and with these new methods, we will have the ones who won't to change their cleaning methods.

Such is life.

[Morph]

Shall I post some more gratuitous nudity before they lock it?

Did you read my reply?

Pj

[rosskesava]

I've been following this thread with interest.

There are the oh so pro wfp users who are the 'wfp is everything brigade' and there  are the trad user who are anti anything good about wfp.

Then in the middle are the majority of which I am a member.

My view of wfp is it is not as good as it is cracked up to be. All the complaints we've had in the last 6 months have been when we've used wfp and there have been a lot. From water going through windows to bird mess to spots to this and that and so on.

Pre wfp for us, we hardly ever got any complaints. Now I am fed up of having to explain everything. I am also fed up of going back to re do jobs done the day before.

On the plus side, it's safer and for some jobs so quick and easy.

Also, for all of our commercial work wfp is all but a waste of time except for a few largish jobs where it is the dogs bo**ocks so to speak.

For me wfp has only 2 real advantages. The big one being not going up a ladder. The second is speed but not every time.

As for quality, I think trad methods give a better result but there again, wfp cleans the frames better. Also, we do quite a few cars now at £10 to £15 a go. And shop fronts etc.

Anyway, that's my view on wfp.

[poleman]

(Self cleaning glass) Not in are life time

The debate seems to fall onto the WFP because they comply with the WAHR and faster safe and earn more money, ladders have been used from when glass was invented and they make up 75% of window cleaners in the UK today, early in the new year there will be new regulation for the use of them, they wont be ban and ladders will still be apart of window cleaning for many years to come but more and more window cleaners will change  over WFP, I take my hat of to CIU for having a adult debate on a motive subject facing our industry and no dummies was spat out in the process.

Andy         

[rosskesava]

for having a adult debate on a motive subject facing our industry and no dummies was spat out in the process.

Sorry Poleman, I don't understand that bit about dummies?

WFP is the future and of that there is no question.

Whether it's better or not - I think that is the real issue.

[poleman]

Hi Ross

Its a saying (big babys)

WFP if used right like any tool of the trade does a good job but will take time and new knowledge, I remember when I first got into WFP local window cleaners said does a bad job, I found out for myself that was not the case it’s the user not WFP.

Andy

[Ian_Giles]

I've removed a few non essential posts, (sorry to those that have had them removed by the way) as this has remained a well debated topic and seems to be full of steam, ergo locking it isn't necessary just yet.

Ross has joined the debate now and added his views, so a couple may wish to respond.
Me for one
My own experience differs from ross's, I've had very little in the way of complaints and by and large I've found that my standards have gone up across the board.
Spotting and other problems are down to user error, I still get the odd bit of spotting, but it is minimal and even on a first time clean the glass comes up mint.

Almost all my work is commercial, and almost all of it is done with the WFP, obviously is you have work in Malls and so on you can hardly use WFP, but I guess that really depends on the nature of your work.

I would also read the thrust of the posts in this thread differently too Ross, I don't think there are any that are 100% WFP on everything and anti trad, not even 'anti' ladders, more a case of interpreting the regs differently.

On that point (and I am really not trying to get you going on that subject...honest!!! I've read many of your posts on the subject and know how you feel about H & S!!) I know of one window cleaner that was actually cleaning the windows of a local Health and safety officer, and being concerned about the new regs he asked him his views on it.

The local Officer interpreted it (and he had just come back from a seminar) in that as you were only working off a ladder for a couple of minutes at a time you were ok, don't worry about it, carry on as normal but just observe safe practice when using your ladders.

Even Safety Officers themselves will differ in their own interpretation in the regs, so it's understandable that we all have different opinions.
For me, Philip Hanson's interpretation makes the most sense of all...and thats the thing...it DOES make sense!!

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the regs now that Ross has joined the debate!
His views differ to Philip's and he is equally well read on the subject too

Oh well, I'm off to work, coming up to 6.30am so I need to get going!

As the thread hasn't run out of steam we'll let it run a little longer, I'll keep removing the 'chaff' when I see it...except that pic Roger posted, we'll leave that one for now
Unless someone complains about the gratuitous use of a scantilly glad female with a pole in her hand of course


Ian

[timdiv]

To Rosskesava


I would say either your water aint right or your technic aint right. Before I started on the WPF I asked a WFPer to do some of my work(domestic) to gauge the reaction.

When I went back with my ladders the next time round mostly I had no reaction(Some client didn't even notice) but the ones who are on the ball preferred it and encouraged me to invest in one.

The rest is history

[windows_chepstow]

I've found this post extremely interesting.

But first of all; a quick apology.  Sorry Roger for giving you such a hard time.  I didn't realise you had back problems. 

With my 'entry-level' system and my type of round; there is definately many 'man-handling' issues.  Not suited for a bad-back.

I know there's many high-earners here, but the highest I've earnt in one day using ladders during my two-and-a-half years of window cleaning is around £150.

Using WFP, today I turned over (by myself - Wor Lass is on holiday) £225.  Mind you, today is my best earning day.  Two shops, one pub, one hotel and the hotel managers house (all inside and out apart from the hotel; that was outside only and 80% leaded).

It would've been mission impossible for me using ladders to do what I did today.

I realise I'm leaving myself open to a 'micky taking' session here from the 'big boys', but I'm just being honest in stating what the difference between ladders and WFP has made to myself.

It's also provided quite a materialistic Christmas; which we haven't had for the past two years, and some time off work without worrying about bills and stuff.

WFP has definately made a difference to our quality of life. 

It's no skin off any WFP user's nose if you won't convert; but you should give it some serious consideration; regardless of any health and safety legislation.

As a final PS, even Wor Lass has noticed I'm less knackered in the evenings, if you know what I mean!