[Gordon_Taylor]

I think everything is getting out of control here, at the end of the day if your a window cleaner then you are a window cleaner if there will be crap trad window cleaners and there will be crap wfp window cleaners, if people want to clean windows in a certain way then should be allowed to and not be jugded if you use ladders good luck to you if you use wfp good luck to you there just different tools to do the same job so lets stop digging each other out and get on with what's important which CLEANING WINDOWS.

Gordon.

[Ian_Giles]

The debate hasn't got nasty or offensive, though Roger's rather sexy pic he posted is going to have to go...shame, but there you go

people are all making valid points so far.

I'm actually enjoying seeing the the various retorts

But today is the last chance to reply!!

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.

Actually, it says you should use the safest means at your disposal to do the job.

As I don't own a pole system then I can't do it in any other way, so I am doing it the safest way available to me.
If I swung from the roof on a rope when I could have used a nice steady ladder, then I'm not using the safest option, hence ignoring laws...

What you're saying is the same as saying "ladders are banned" :

It's typical of wfp'ers to say something like that.
This is what annoys us trad cleaners and started this whole thing.

Rog.

[P @ F]

HERE , HERE GORDON !

When i first became aware of people using wfp for domestic i laughed , i thought that it could in no way beat the trad method , but in the end i put my hand in my pocket and purchased it anyway , i have spent about £1000 on the system , £800 on poles and £5000 on a van to put it all in , i couldnt help but think that i had wasted my money at first , could not see any way to stop the spotting , i was going to flog the lot and do just trad .
I kept on with it and in the end it was down to my technique , and i also di all my water before it even goes into the van , now i can hand on heart say that i have never had a prob since , not ever .
In my opinion i am a far better at wfp than trad .

What i am trying to say is , choose your tool to suit your style and get on with it , my old man used to say somfin like " its not the tool its the user "

 COME ON LETS ALL BE BUDDIES AGAIN !

Oh , and in my previous post i said wfp is king , i suppose what i meant was wfp is king for me .

  Rich   P @ F    

[P @ F]

SQUEAKY CLEAN ......

 I have to admit , when i changed over i did tell my customers that ladders were soon to be banned , SORRY , i just saw it as an easy way to tell them i could not be bothered to get my skinny a r s e  up ladders anymore .

   Rich  P @ F    :

[Sir Squeaky]

Well yeah, that's probably what I'd do!

[P @ F]

SO SQUEAKY .....

Does your last comment mean that your going at last ......to WFP !

 GO ON , YOU KNOW YOU WANNA !   

   Rich  P @ F

[Sir Squeaky]

Actually Rich I've got a plan for a whole new technique.

You see I've got this friend with a trampoline.....

[williamx]

Roger

You will find that the hse will not accept that because you don't have a wfp system you don't have to use them, they will inform you to either buy or lend a wfp system if that is the safest method to do the job, or don't do the job.

I did not say that ladders are banned, what I said is if there is no alternative method that you can use to clean the windows safely, then you can use ladders.

You say that you are a "trad Cleaner" is that the "trad cleaner" who cleaned windows before the squeegie was invented or before srims were used.

WE ALL ARE WINDOW CLEANERS NO MATTER WHAT EQUIPMENT YOU USE.

[Ian_Giles]

I knew Roger wouldn't be able to resist another reply....


Philip Hanson's posts give a fairly definitive definition of how the rules are going to be interpreted.
And I don't think anyone on here really says ladders are banned, we all know they are not.
And it won't be until you have an accident of some kind that the proverbial will hit the fan.
Not having a piece of equipment isn't justification to use something else instead either!!

Come on Rog, make another reply before we have to lock it up!!

You know you want to!

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

I'm sure you're enjoying the show Ian.

[windows_chepstow]

Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.

Actually, it says you should use the safest means at your disposal to do the job.

As I don't own a pole system then I can't do it in any other way, so I am doing it the safest way available to me.
What you're saying is the same as saying "ladders are banned" ::)If I swung from the roof on a rope when I could have used a nice steady ladder, then I'm not using the safest option, hence ignoring laws...

It's typical of wfp'ers to say something like that.
This is what annoys us trad cleaners and started this whole thing.

Rog.

Rog,

If you read the WAHD and it's guidance notes, it states that the guiding principle is that if a task can be completed from the ground; then that's how it should be done.

Full stop.

Nothing to do with 'safest means at your disposal'.  I don't mean to be argumentative; but your simply wrong.

Ian Greenwood, Head of the Working  at Height Directive Team said on Newnight that ladders aren't banned, but window cleaners MUST consider the alternatives first.

That's not just a wooly statement.  

Fred:  'Burt, what the alternatives?'

Burt:  'Dunno, mate, I've just got a ladder.  So none really'.

Fred:  'Great, ladders are okay then'.

It just doesn't work like that.

Fortunately, no-one is policing the WAHD so I can and still do use ladders in an inappropriate fashion.

I know when I use a ladder; most - if not all of the time - I'm not complying with the WAHD.

But at least I've actually read the rules, undertand them and I'm man enough to admit that I often don't comply with them also.

It's getting tedious reading 'informed' statements about the WAHD.  It's been with us for at least nine months now.

Why not try reading the WAHD.

[busydaffodil]

He said "How many different types of business can you think of ?"

"Hundreds" said one guy. "Thousands" said another.

"NO" he said "theres only one, All businesses are about making money. Everything else is just detail"
 

I'm going to borrow that one!! Thanks. 

[Sir Squeaky]

So to sum up then Tosh:

If you haven't got hundreds if not thousands of pounds to burn, then you're out of a job and your business folds.

That ain't right.

[Morph]

To be honest, so far since I've been on this forum Roger has given the most calm, logical, uncomplicated answers and reasons for remaining a window cleaner using only traditional methods with ladder, bucket, mop & squeegee etc.
I still use all that when I need to.  Having been converted to wfp just a couple of months ago, I am still a novice with the new method.  Having cleaned Roger's way (Squeaky Clean) for 18 years I know exactly why he is defending his corner.
I had a customer today who knows nothing of wfp.  She said she has never had a window cleaner who can clean windows as well as me.
Sad isn't it!  That made me feel good.
I showed her my new way.  She didn't care, as long as I kept cleaning them as good as ever, was her view.
Who cares?

If you want job satisfaction, you'll get it more by sweating with the old way.

If you want bigger money go wfp!!!

Sorry Rog and good guys like you.  So far I would say, you don't get the same kick from people saying you work so hard and do such a good job.  You lose some of the personal touch, but...........
MORE MONEY and less effort!

I had a heart attack nearly 3 years ago.  Dr. said take things easy.   WFP is less effort.  I work longer than I have since my return to work.

I DON'T DO IT FOR LOVE

Pj

Lock it soon Ian (Shorty )

[busydaffodil]

Many new rules & regs aint right or are unworkable.   Thats life hun.  We choose to follow them, break the rules or get out quick.    
Gone are the days when you could set up a business and trade without all the rules!  

Anyways............as long as my windows are clean and are cleaned by a WINDOW CLEANER, I dont care how theyre done!

[williamx]

So to sum up then Tosh:

If you haven't got hundreds if not thousands of pounds to burn, then you're out of a job and your business folds.

That ain't right.

It might not be right or fair but its law.

Also no one can say I can't afford it, a simple overdraft is more than enough to get a basic system and this system will pay that overdraft back a hundred fold.

[Sir Squeaky]

Well that's nice if you haven't already got a big overdraft!

Besides which, if I did go that way I'd want a van, so I could carry enough water to last my week.

I'm not spending unpaid time every day lugging water about with my bad back, and filling tanks.
I'd just want to fill a big tank from the tap once a week and that's it.
And that's still more work than I have to do now.
I just chuck some scrims in my pouches and stick my bucket under the tap and I'm off.
I've got no room in my garden for a tank and I don't want my car wet inside.

Just too many hassles for me.

There. I've given some good reasons there, not just excuses.

Cheers for the bit of support PJ.
Appreciated mate.

[P @ F]

William X is right , got myself a 0% egg card , banged the system and all that  was needed on it , the balance will be gone before the 0% runs out .
Interest free loan to earn your money !

 Rich  P @ F

[williamx]

Roger

Someone once said "its easy to find reasons not to do something, than it is to do it"