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John Conroy

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2005, 12:24:58 pm »
100% AGREE had it with anti wfp brigade

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2005, 03:00:47 pm »
Probably gonna upset a few here , but hey lots of others are doing it .
My view is that wfp is king , safe , quick , what else is there to say ?

All the anti wfp brigade strike me as being the ones who dont want to part with their money , tight wads ! LOL

 Rich P @ F
Erm, no. Don't know what the other's reasons are, but I'm not selling out to a machine with £ signs in my eyes.

I've got pride in my work and it doesn't suit my round.

If I did want to, £1000-odd quid + a van is more than pocket change.
Doesn't make me tight not having that sort of capital....

H h20

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2005, 03:58:50 pm »
Squeaky Rog,you need to be multi skilled to be able to tackle wfp aswell,we have proved it that we can handle it,Gaz

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2988
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2005, 05:09:52 pm »
Mmm,
I have a great deal of pride in my own work, and as Roger will confirm, I always work to a good standard.
But now I have made the move to WFP I would say that my standards have, by and large gone up by a marked degree.
But staying with the original point of the topic; I have read very little in the way of WFP users knocking ladder users in a derogatory sense, rarely do they have a pop at trad window cleaners, but the reverse is often the case with the entrenched trad window cleaners often being only to keen to have a go at the WFP user.
Spotting is usually the target for the die hard trad cleaner.

Let’s have a little comparison with the WFP….

The trad window cleaner will often leave smears on the glass, particularly Georgian windows, and if he should use a cut down squeegee there are usually marks left all over the shop, plus smudges and smears from all the detailing he will have had to do.
When he squeegees a window he will often leave lines around the edges, and even when he details there will still be scuff marks from the scrim.
Even a diligent window cleaner may have cleaned several windows before he notices that the squeegee is leaving marks behind and he need to turn or change his rubber because of a minute ‘nick’ somewhere along it.
The less diligent one may well not change his rubber regularly enough and that will lead to an overall poor finish, that really shows up after a day or two has passed.
Then there are the missed ‘kicks’ and ‘jumps’ from the squeegee.
What about the frames? How many trad cleaners even bother with the frames? Many will hardly bother to wipe a wet, dirty scrim over the sill, let alone clean the frames.
How about the front and back doors? Not the patio ones, the ordinary painted or UPVC ones, with maybe just a single pane of glass in, how many trad cleaners wash all of this down?
And how many trad cleaners use a single scrim all day long? Maybe just dry it out and use it the next day for detailing too? Or several days maybe?
Then there is applicator and the water, how many use a single bucket of water all day long?
How many don’t wash their applicator from one month to the next, let alone from one week to the next!
Then there are the ladders to contend with, in my travels I rarely see many window cleaners using ladder mits, and often the end pieces of the ladder have worn and it is just the aluminium scrubbing against the walls of the house leaving dirty marks, or the ladder has rested on the sill, scratching the UPVC sills and damaging the wooden ones.
The rubber marks from many pointer ladders are evident on many window frames too, not easy to get off.

Whereas the WFP user might leave a few spots…um, if he is clumsy he might knock over a flower pot…erm…um, oh, ok, he could spray water though an open window, or a window may be leaky, and we all know that he will struggle to do a good job on windows with oxidised frames.
Now although it is certainly easier to cock up a job with WFP, by and large there is less to go wrong, there are fewer elements involved in the actual cleaning of the glass and frames, it is a brush with pure water coming out of it.
Only the bristles of the brush as against, applicator, squeegee and scrim is in contact with the surface it is cleaning.

Now before all you fundamentalist trad cleaners start spluttering into your coffee, I have deliberately highlighted all the possible flaws and problems you can have doing things the trad way (or as many as I could think of while writing this anyway!)
And of course, all the above is negated by any window cleaner who is diligent and prides him or herself on doing a top job day in, day out.
The same applies to the WFP’er!!
And the WFP user is also a trad window cleaner too.
WFP is not a sell out to a machine with £ signs in your eyes, its an investment for the future and a bloody good tool to have in your vehicle…which doesn’t have to be a van either…and doesn’t have to cost anything like a grand to get set up with!!

For the most part it is us poor old WFP’ers who have to defend ourselves against the vitriol of the fundamentalist trad guy, who doesn’t just dog ear his squeegee,
but cunningly files the edges to a razor like blade….and sabotages the poor old WFP’ers hose when he is out of sight around the back of a house!  :'(

(I made up that last bit ;D)

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

H h20

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2005, 05:20:25 pm »
Ian,i am very disapointed woth your post,i use wfp for tops and large commercial windows,i use pad and squeegee more than i do wfp,i have been window cleaning for 18 years and i AM the best window cleaner full stop,i don`t leave marks from scrims ,rubbers or what ever,i clean all frames sills and doors and use atleast 6 scrims a day,i don`t knock trad cleaning atall it`s just ladders that i don`t climb anymore,Gaz

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2005, 05:34:59 pm »
OK firstly as a window cleaner. WFP is just one TOOL of the trade. A very good one if used properly just like any other tool that we use and like any other rubbish if used incorrectly. I certainly dont think that I am any better than a good totally trad man in any way. I too like you Squeaky take a pride in my work whichever way I do it.

I do believe also that Mr Salkeld is correct in what he says. Yes you CAN use ladders if it's safe to do so providing you have done a thorough risk assesment. Just because someone uses ladders doesn't make them unprofessional at all although I believe that the WAHD does leave the door open for the no win no fee compensation outfits to jump in.

Now speaking with my experience as a supplier of WFP equipment I speak daily to people investigating making the move over. One thing above all others has struck me. Almost without fail the most important thing to them is quality. It seems to me that these many and varied people take their businesses very seriously. Yes of course they want the safety and do discuss the time saving element but by far the most important thing to them is the quality of service they offer their customers. All I do is relate my own experience which is very positive where WFP is concerned.

I do mostly all 1st floor upwards with WFP and use trad on ground floor ( all of the property if it's leaded or decent paintwork georgian) This way I am around 40% faster. I stll do trad 1st floor because it gives me some variety to my work. Cmon folks.. each to their own. As long as we do a good job and look after our customers well we don't deserve to be derided because of the method we use to get the end product.

Now.. lets get that WAHD changed...  so you allllllllll have to go WFP   ;D  ;D   ;D

Cheers

Andrew

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2005, 05:35:08 pm »
I, ve just spent £14,000.00 in the last 3 months investing in a new van and a van mounted wfp set up.

This morning I also bought a new ladder with  extra safety devices as well. I do intented to use both for a short while. If wfp is as good as everyone says I will reconsider  in a years time weather too stop usueing a ladder all together.

I've now got wfp and allways will have. I have just got to get used to it.
Though a customer remminded me yesterday how I complained when I started useing a sqeggee.

Nel.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2988
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2005, 05:47:32 pm »
Gaz,

You are the exception and not the rule, and if you read carefuly you will see I am not knocking trad, I use it everyday, I was counterpointing the original post.

But you will leave marks Gaz, there isn't a window cleaner in existance that won't do so, not a one.
Get the light in the right angle and it will always show up something.

when I was full time trad I'd only use about three scrims a day at best, and a single bucket of water lasted me all day long!
Though as I always used a BOAB I would alos say that the water was clean at all times
I never did frames and I never did doors, and I don't know of anyone local that does either, those that do so, like yourself are the exception and not the rule, but good for you for being so particular ;)

Neil,

It won't take you a year dude....
I'll look for any excuse NOT to climb a ladder now :-\

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2005, 05:56:36 pm »
if you can use any kind of pole be it wfp or the norm,backflip etc,then I would go this way rather then a ladder ;)it does make sense ;)
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2005, 05:58:22 pm »
Ian,
      I've never had anyone mention a line, kick, or smudge around the edge in 8 years.
You'd have to be pretty poor to leave anything worth a customer mentioning.

It's hardly as noticeable as spotty windows or bird poop that you haven't seen from 15ft below.
Now I have heard many complaints about that.... ::)

I don't think trad people on here are attacking wfp users, it's more a case of defending themselves against some around here who think they're superior.

We're just highlighting how wrong that is. ;)

Rog. (wishing you'd lock this!)

Paul Coleman

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2005, 06:01:41 pm »


Neil,

It won't take you a year dude....
I'll look for any excuse NOT to climb a ladder now :-\

Ian

Ian.
I've only been doing WFP a few weeks and I begrudge getting my ladder off already  :)

H h20

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2005, 06:08:06 pm »
Ian i agree with squeaky bean,this topic is getting knowhere apart from disagreements,so lock it up and throw away the key,Gaz  ;)

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2005, 06:47:15 pm »
squeaky bean
That's right Jiz. :P

(better than Streaky Clean I've had before!)

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2005, 07:04:22 pm »
Right!

As the title says, these are "ANTI-LADDER KNOCKERS"

There you go, I've broken the rules, now lock it!!!!!

(took me ages that did...) ;D

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2005, 07:05:19 pm »
As a window cleaner.

Air your views, get it off your chest, you will feel a lot better.

I would never offer advice to a smoker on how hard or easy it is to kick the eveil weed because I have never smoked.  

But a lot of traditional w/cleaners are only too eager to slack wfp users off. haveing never tryed it, or only to look at the negatives.

I am switching to wfp and expecting to hate it for several months. But then your attitude is suppossed to change as you get used to it, and you start to really know what you are doing.

In dec 2007 I will be able to give an informed opionion on both methods of w/c. Till then I will keep my powder Dry.

Nel.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2988
Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2005, 07:17:52 pm »
I will let it run for another hour or so, I'm waiting to see if anyone else misinturprets what I have said!
Rog,
Just because a customer hasn't said anything, doesn't mean these things aren't there.
If a customer wants to find fault, they will, and you will well know yourself, when yo udo an inside, should a customer ask you, you will almost invariably find fault yourself and have to go out and pick up the mistakes.
If it is a georgian there will be even more.
I have never had anyone working for me who I couldn't find fault with if I wanted too.
I know I am sounding pedantic here, and I am honestly not trying to knock anyone, but no matter how good you are, no matter how fussy, throughout the day you will make mistakes.
And it is also more than possible to miss bird poo even when doing it trad.
On a standard house you can see bird poo easily from the ground, I haven't had a problem with that at all so far, even on 3rd floor windows.


And Roger...the point of the above critique was to highlight that it is also possible to point to areas where trad cleaners can and do make errors!!
The tongue may have been part way in the cheek at times, but there has to be bits in there that all will recognise.

How many of you look at windows that others have cleaned and 'tut-tutted' to yourselves, you will usually be able to find fault with someone elses work!

Most of my work is shops and offices, pub and so on, but when I am in another town, or in a pub I don't clean, I can't help but look at the work of whatever window cleaner has done them, it isn't often I can't say to myself, 'Ha! I do a better job then them!'

Bad mistakes are down to user error, and not the tools used, but to continually say that WFP leaves windows spotty all the time is gravely wrong, it doesn't, just as trad work doesn't always leave smears, or runs or kicks.

We'll leave this thread to run for today, then we'll lock it away until the next thread comes up along similar lines and we re-hash it all over again!

It's like Groundhog day...just not in technicolour!!

And for all of you who keep replying to these threads...you don't have to if you don't want to!!

But you just can't help yourself can you?

It's an itch you just have to scratch!!

Surprise me Gaz or Roger....no longer reply to this thread...can you resist just one last word.....eh? ;D ;D :-X


Regards,


Ian
PS,

Nel, you won't hate it for several months, after a week or two you will start to enjoy it, and by the time you get onto repeat cleans you'll be lovin' it!
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2005, 07:50:20 pm »
Being new to WFP, I love these threads.

I took an account from a ladder user today; she asked me to give her a quote because her neighbor said her window cleaner did such an excellent job 'with a machine' and could do ALL the windows; including the ones above the conservatory.

Funny thing is, I wasn't her neighbors window cleaner.  It must be some other lad with a pole.  She assumed it was me.

I quoted £15.00.  Her ladder window cleaner charges £10.00.

She took me on and seems like a very nice customer too.

She paid £20.00 and told me to keep the rest for a drink.  It was also quite dark by the time I finished; but she was okay with that.

However, I still used a ladder today; at least 10 times for access or for flat roofs, or just when I thought a job might be simpler.

Don't knock the WFP.  It's a good tool; as they say.  We're all in the business of making money; and it definately makes you more than using ladders.

I reckon I did an extra £35 to £50 today; than I would've using a ladder and tomorrow I'll make an extra £45.  Okay, this might be small cheese to some here; but to me it's a big difference.  I'm new still wet behind the ears within the window cleaning fraternity.

I also agree with Ian about the 1st lot of WFP cleans.  They're tedious; but important to get right the first time.

The second time; you fly round; at least 30 to 50 percent faster.

In three months I've had one valid complaint on a first clean (I must've went too quick); had many positive remarks and not lost a single customer; although I can think of two customers who would prefer I used a ladder. 

But I think this is because of what I'm charging and the speed of cleaning.  The quality of cleaning is high; I make sure I double check because I know these are 'funny' customers.  But if they dropped me; so what?  Two lost customers out of approximately 350 isn't bad.

timdiv

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2005, 08:04:23 pm »
You didnt spend as much me. I spent 15,000 and I haven't regretted it for one millisecond as I can see I will get it all back.

I've only ever heard trad w\c knock it. I never heard of a WFPer who didnt like it, sold up and gone back to ladders. For me that says it all. It used to be a strugle for me to get out to work now actually quite enjoy it and not always thinking about doing something else.

Long live WFP!!!

williamx

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2005, 08:17:37 pm »
Roger

You wrote "I've got pride in my work and it doesn't suit my round"  regarding the use of wfp cleaning, you then went on to detail how you are professional window cleaner who takes great care how his business is seen, which is great.

Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.

If you disregard this regulation then you are breaking the law, which is not how a professional businessman wants his company to be seen doing.

There are a lot of laws which I don't like or suit me, like paying tax, but its the law so I do it.
  

 

Re: Getting bored of WFP only fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2005, 08:22:02 pm »
...I've only ever heard trad w\c knock it. I never heard of a WFPer who didnt like it, sold up and gone back to ladders...

Tim,

Some people are frightened of 'change'. 

I spent some time in the army and I remember on my Senior NCO's cadre learning about 'Change Management' and how 'they don't like it'; 'change' that is.

But this type of 'change' is definately for the better.  It is possible to make more money using a WFP.  And it's safer and less arduous.  Fact! 

Some people embrace change; they love the variety and challenge.  Others won't change.  They'll come up with allsorts of lame excuses.  'Dog ate my homework, Sir!'.  'Spots'.  'My customer's won't like it'.  But we know that's pure rubbish, because others have proved they can do a good job and keep their customers.

Darwin summed it up far more eloquently than I (survival of the fittest); forget IQ tests; the only true measure of intelligence is adaptability.

Some people will not adapt through fear or dullness.