[Jeff Brimble]

Hi Sqeaky I have a name thats not derogatory, that no one else has collared yet. Why  not call trad w/cers   "Classic window cleaning" - not my origination but I thought it was cool.

[neil100]

Ive just got my van back with my wfp tank and gear all done by facelift. Looks great and I will start useing it in jan next year.

Going wfp for safety reasons. Been dragging my backside up and down ladders for 26 yrs.I do tops my son the bottoms, I must climb up and down a ladder a  1000 times a week. Safety here I come.

I will still do houses traditional,were the window frames of a house are not up to standard. I'm about to order a new 12' ladder as my old one as passed it sell by date.

Embrace both, and keep your options open.

By April I should of masterd wfp and I'm targetting a £8000.00 increase in earnings nexyt year, I would not be able to do it without wfp.

Nel

[craig jwc]

I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.
I disagree that wfp will give w/c's a bad name as it is progress with the times.
I'm sure the squeegee hasn't been around for ever so was there a disagreement when this was introduced?
I use both methods but mainly wfp as i find it quicker with better results, but that is just my opinion.
Even though i had heard of the wfp before i joined this forum i new nothing about it.
If it wasn't for the helpful advice and postings i probably would have stuck to using ladders.
Now i have this extra tool to aid me in my work i am as happy as a pig in s**t.
I can work quicker, deliver a good service and work safer which means alot to me.
WFP is just another tool to help us just like this forum.

Craig

[H h20]

I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.
I disagree that wfp will give w/c's a bad name as it is progress with the times.
I'm sure the squeegee hasn't been around for ever so was there a disagreement when this was introduced?
I use both methods but mainly wfp as i find it quicker with better results, but that is just my opinion.
Even though i had heard of the wfp before i joined this forum i new nothing about it.
If it wasn't for the helpful advice and postings i probably would have stuck to using ladders.
Now i have this extra tool to aid me in my work i am as happy as a pig in s**t.
I can work quicker, deliver a good service and work safer which means alot to me.
WFP is just another tool to help us just like this forum.

Craig

What an amazing reply,see theres no need for any nasty remarks,good on yer Craig,Gaz

[KJG]

rubbish!

Stay in the dark ages! You paint such a bad picture that is not entirely true! I have a commercial wfp company but still respect the need for trad cleaning.

Your views are bitter and badly investigated.

A bit of both here. I didn't mention in the opening post that I use WFP - my fault and you obviously haven't read my later post, the reply to Kingfisher.

[Philip Hanson]

I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.

Unfortunately, it is not as straight forward as that.

The Temporary Work at Height Regulations 2005 require alternatives to work at height to be used where practicable.  It is a simple fact that WFP is a practicable alternative to work at height for the vast majority of window cleaning situations, especialy residential.

If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law.  That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here :

Temp WAH Regs 2005

Notice particularly para 2 of the introductory section 6 which states

"(2) Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height."

Note also that sec 3(3) of the citation paragraph includes the self employed in the term "employer"

If you are using work at height, to comply with the regs you must be able to justify the fact that you did not employ a method that avoided the need to work at height.  As more and more window cleaners are changing over to poles, this is only going to get more difficult.

If you employ others and you use ladders, woe betide you if an accident occurs.  All a "no-win, no fee" lawyer would have to prove is that the building you were doing could have been done with a WFP, and not only will you be liable for compensation, you will also face criminal charges for negligence.  It is likely that in addition to that, the HSE would prosecute you for breach of the regulations.  Forget about any insurance cover you may or may not have, if you're found to be working illegally, it won't cover you.  Bye bye business, house, car, savings and anything else you have of any value.

At the end of the day, we can argue till the cows come home about WFP versus Ladders, but the fact is that ladders - as useful as they always be to window cleaners - will no longer be regarded as the primary means of access for window cleaners.

If you don't yet use a WFP, then my advice is forget about all this squabbling and work towards getting one for your own benefit.  This will allow you to comply with the law, will safeguard any employees you have from the potential for a serious (even fatal) accident, and not  mention the fact that your wife/girlfriend/partner won't have to worry that one day they'll get a phonecall from the hospital about you.

Its a no-brainer, and it needn't cost the earth either.  WFP is transforming the window cleaning industry.  My recommendation is Take Advantage Of It!

-Philip

[craig jwc]

I understand all that.
But when i said it is up to them, i ment it's up to them to decide if they want wfp or to stick using ladders.
I was assuming people who just use ladders are going with these new regs.
Whatever anyone posts on any forum you will have a conflict.
Thats what some of these places are for.
I use this for info which i have found very useful.

Even if the Height regs hadn't changed i would still have added wfp to my van as the safety side of it was more important to me.

Craig

[Ian_Giles]

I changed to WFP for a number of reasons, I think the biggest at the time was I had got utterly fed up with climbing ladders and was becoming more and more aware of the consequences of a mishap.
At the time I was 48 years old, when looking to the future I could only see an endless time of climbing ladders and cleaning windows, personal pension that is worth diddly squat, I can't afford to retire...
Some of the ladder work was getting to feel like hard work, in particular offices of 30 to 40 feet...that is a big and heavy ladder to work off, I just didn't want it anymore.

If I could have found a job as a driver of some description I would have probably taken it, and offered my commercial round to Roger of Squeaky Clean fame.

If I hadn't come on to the forums (Peter Fogwill's to begin with), Roger may may had all my work!

But now I have made the move, quite regardless of the safety angle, I would say to any window cleaner, prime your customers now, even if it will take you a year or two to make the change, start getting them used to the idea.

WFP does a first rate job, it is easier and faster, that isn't to say its not hard work, at times it most certainly is.
Any window you can get a ladder to you can sure as hell get a WFP to.

Take on board all that Philip has said with regards to the law and health and safety, you'll have to shell out a few bob and be prepared for a sharp learning curve, but you'll earn more money.

In almost 2 years I have only climbed a ladder to clean window on a handful of occasions, the most I use a ladder for is access onto a flat roof (and I am cutting that out too, you put your foot through a roof or have a customer try to claim that you have caused a leak and it is a minefield, apportioning blame and responsibility is not remotely straight forward) or to get over a garden wall.

I still use trad skills every day, I don't think you can be a window cleaner unless you have all those skills too...you cannot really be JUST a WFP window cleaner, but you can be a virtually ladder free window cleaner...and make more money too! and thats the reason I go out to work every day...to make money, I ain't doing it for love.

regards

Ian

[genesis_windows]

time for a group hug and then we can all bend down and pick up the dummies that have been spat all over the floor!
wfp or squeegee-- if you do it well your still a bloody window cleaner.
we're here to help eachother are'nt we?

[Sir Squeaky]

time for a group hug...

That's right Mr.Genesis. (See I'm not calling people names now!)

I suggest we all do it our own way and stop all this "I'm better than you" nonsense.

We may have different opinions but there's no point arguing about it.
I'm not going to change my method because someone says there's is better and they should do the same.
Sooner or later there'll be another method anyway....

This sort of rubbish is now creeping into threads that started off on different topics in the first place.

Maybe there should be a separate "Debate and arguing" thread.
Perhaps some people should pay a visit to Dave and Sarah's off-topic area for a bit of a laugh and unwind a bit.

So from now on I'm saying nothing and just going to chuckle to myself.
Of course, if anyone starts it again.....!

Rog.(bored of typing now)

[neil100]

If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law.  That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here

What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp  on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.

I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.

If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like Dick Turpin without the horse.

Nel.

[Paul Coleman]

If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law.  That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here

What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp  on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.

I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.

If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like thingy Turpin without the horse.

Nel.

Thingy Turpin indeed.  I just love this forum censorship.  :-)

[JohnL]

perhaps I should have posted my comments in this thread instead of this one  - http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=14458.0

JohnL

[dai]

I first started cleaning windows in 1958, God that's nearly half  century ago.
Nobody wanted to do shop fronts, we only had chamoise and scrims in those days. We had never heard of sqeegies. Then someone got one.
Now how could you do a proper job with all those suds and water everywhere. It soon became apparent that this bloke was doing shop fronts in a fraction of the time we were taking, to add insult to injury he was doing a better job.
We decided that sqeegies were ok for shop fronts but no good for domestic work, and this was to a large extent true. Most houses in those days had small pane sash windows. It was only when the fashion for large picture windows came in that sqeegies became an everyday tool for domestic work. For some thirty years the sqeegie was king and for some work still is.
At the age of 63 I  invested in a WFP system. This was NOT for safety reasons. I have used ladders for all these years, and felt safe enough doing so.
The reason I changed was so that I could do the job faster and make more money,and this has definately been the case. Not only that but the bloody thing does a better job
 When I have to use ladders now, and I do occasionaly, I don't feel as safe anymore.
Times change. Who would have thought in 1958 that I would be sitting in front of a thing called a PC, and communicating with fellow window cleaners from all over the world. DAI

[JohnL]

well said dai 

JohnL

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

What I object to is the way us professional, experienced ladder users are now being called Law Breakers!!!!
I don't blame fellow window cleaners who have pointed the WAHR. It is the way some in our industry are interpriting the WAHR, mostly those who have an interest in the WFP industry!!
WFP is an excellent tool and I will be geting a system next year but:
I AM NOT....NOT BREAKING THE LAW BY USING A LADDER TO CLEAN WINDOWS.
So long as my risk assesment show the risk is low

David Salkeld

[KJG]

If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law.  That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here

What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp  on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.

I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.

If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like thingy Turpin without the horse.

Nel.

I wonder if the end product is/would be a viable argument in law for ladder use?

[Ian_Giles]

I've removed several replies, stay sensibly on topic and debate the issues properly or the thread will be locked.
If you want to play, go to the non related section of the forums guys, that what it is there for.

Ian

[Jeff Brimble]

David the local authority this area have asked me for RAs If I used ladders I wouldnt get a sniff of the jobs and would be stopped from the ones I do have.

[P @ F]

Probably gonna upset a few here , but hey lots of others are doing it .
My view is that wfp is king , safe , quick , what else is there to say ?

All the anti wfp brigade strike me as being the ones who dont want to part with their money   ,  tight wads !   LOL

  Rich   P @ F