[dai]

We hear so often of so called cowboy window cleaners, but do they really exist?
I've been doing the job for 13 years and have yet to meet one.
Sure, some guys only clean windows when they feel like it, but they have occasional customers who pay them, and are happy with that arrangement.
There are regular professional gardners that have rounds too.
There is also old Joe that cuts grass for a few of his neighbours for a couple of quid a time.
Nothing wrong with either of the above that I can see. If their customers wanted a more regular or comprehensive service, they would find one.
Maybe they don't have TPL insurance,  but it's not a legal requirement. I  have it out of fear that some litigious minded person would sue the roof from over my head.
I knew a W/C who saw scrims as an unjustifiable expense. He used bar towels instead. He had a good round too with lots of bungalow work.
His customers could have changed W/C's if they wanted. They stayed loyal though, maybe because he only charged half the going rate.
A quiet unassuming guy that could not bring himself to raise his prices, and may well have hated himself for it.
Was he doing anything wrong? Was he a cowboy?
The government has really made life difficult for benefit cheats these past few years. I rarely read of anyone getting done for working on the side. Plenty of work around for those that want it
I maybe a bit naive here, living in North Wales, but I have seen no cowboys.
Maybe in more densely populated areas ther are people exploiting immigrants, and employing them as W/C's for less than the minimum rate. If this is the case it is wrong and they should be dealt with.
Would a license prevent this? I don't think so.
I've seen a few shepherds, cowboys? Not a one. Dai

[windows_chepstow]

One definition of a Cowboy is:

a dishonest or unqualified tradesman

Since it's not mandatory for window cleaners to have qualifications; I guess it's the 'dishonest' part that makes window cleaners have a bad name.

Wor Lass saw a TV programme some months ago and they showed two window cleaners; one a thief who stole from a customer who had senile dementia; the other was claiming some sort of sickness benefit.  They were both caught on camera.

These were obviously low-life scum-bags; particularly the first example.

But it's rare; I hope.

Whether you're using ladders or a WFP; window cleaning is not for the faint-hearted.  It's hard work and you should be out working in all types of weather.

People of questionable character, looking for easy money will not last long, nor will pick up much business.

There maybe a few (two) window cleaners around these parts that I'm not keen on, but I couldn't call any of them a cowboy.

 

[danny mckim]

Ive been involved with windowcleaning for about 23 years and ive seen a few cowboys. Way back i remember windowcleaners with the scrims and a wet leather. No way did some of them clean the windows properly. About 15 years ago i was workin in town when a guy jumped out his car and soaked the sills of a big clothes shop. His idea was that when the manager arrived 10 min later it looked as if the windows had been cleaned. More recently ive heard of a windowcleaner taking money off a ledge without doing the windows. I think in the past windowcleaners made money to go for a drink in the afternoon but now it seems to be big buisness and everybody is trying to jump aboard. People who have been involved for at least 10 years are the lucky ones as they should have a settled run by now.

[Paul Coleman]

We hear so often of so called cowboy window cleaners, but do they really exist?
I've been doing the job for 13 years and have yet to meet one.
Sure, some guys only clean windows when they feel like it, but they have occasional customers who pay them, and are happy with that arrangement.
There are regular professional gardners that have rounds too.
There is also old Joe that cuts grass for a few of his neighbours for a couple of quid a time.
Nothing wrong with either of the above that I can see. If their customers wanted a more regular or comprehensive service, they would find one.
Maybe they don't have TPL insurance,  but it's not a legal requirement. I  have it out of fear that some litigious minded person would sue the roof from over my head.
I knew a W/C who saw scrims as an unjustifiable expense. He used bar towels instead. He had a good round too with lots of bungalow work.
His customers could have changed W/C's if they wanted. They stayed loyal though, maybe because he only charged half the going rate.
A quiet unassuming guy that could not bring himself to raise his prices, and may well have hated himself for it.
Was he doing anything wrong? Was he a cowboy?
The government has really made life difficult for benefit cheats these past few years. I rarely read of anyone getting done for working on the side. Plenty of work around for those that want it
I maybe a bit naive here, living in North Wales, but I have seen no cowboys.
Maybe in more densely populated areas ther are people exploiting immigrants, and employing them as W/C's for less than the minimum rate. If this is the case it is wrong and they should be dealt with.
Would a license prevent this? I don't think so.
I've seen a few shepherds, cowboys? Not a one. Dai

Well if I'm honest about it, I suppose I was a cowboy at first.  I had an old banger, borrowed a ladder of a plumber I knew who wasn't plumbing at the time, and didn't intend to clean windows over the long haul.  That was 14 years ago    .  However, I did register with the IR, I did get an accountant, and did get PL insurance because there were few employment opportunities during that recession so I reckoned I would probably end up window cleaning for at least a year.  Also, I didn't know what I was doing at first.  I used to craftily watch other window cleaners working to see how they did it    .  Seems funny now.

[Nick_Thompson]

The other day I arrived at a customer’s house to find another W.C. parked next door.

 After a rudimentary salutation (unreciprocated), I set to work.

 Then, 5 or 6 minutes into the job, the other chap emerged from his 1980’s Datsun. He untied his wooded, 3 metre, single section, multi coloured, paint embellished ladder and started work on an identical house.

He reached the rear of his property before I reached mine, and left shortly thereafter.

It takes me 25 minutes to clean the 76 medium sized, Georgian styled panes, along with the front, back and patio doors, frames and sills (£15).

He wasn’t working for more than 8 minutes.

The UPVC was grey!

Surely, if he had of said good bye, it would have been, Yahoo!

[Londoner]

My definition of a cowboy is someone who works while claiming benefits. They are not in it for the long haul and steal your customers by undercutting on price and then disappear a couple of months later.

[Paul Coleman]

The other day I arrived at a customer’s house to find another W.C. parked next door.

 After a rudimentary salutation (unreciprocated), I set to work.

 Then, 5 or 6 minutes into the job, the other chap emerged from his 1980’s Datsun. He untied his wooded, 3 metre, single section, multi coloured, paint embellished ladder and started work on an identical house.

He reached the rear of his property before I reached mine, and left shortly thereafter.

It takes me 25 minutes to clean the 76 medium sized, Georgian styled panes, along with the front, back and patio doors, frames and sills (£15).

He wasn’t working for more than 8 minutes.

The UPVC was grey!

Surely, if he had of said good bye, it would have been, Yahoo!

I may have seen him around too Nick - don't know his name though.

[Paul Coleman]

My definition of a cowboy is someone who works while claiming benefits. They are not in it for the long haul and steal your customers by undercutting on price and then disappear a couple of months later.

Even the claiming benefits issue isn't necessarily a good guideline.  I was claiming them for the first few weeks before I reached the income level where I was no longer entitled to them - and I wasn't being a parasite either.  The way it worked was that I had been working on the PAYE system for most of my working life.  At the time, this entitled me to 6 months unemployment benefit if my income was below a certain level AND if I was seeking work.  Back then you were deducted one days unemployment benefit for each day you worked.  If the weekly income went above a certain level (about £50 back then), then the entitlement stopped.  Therefore, as I started from zero turnover, I did all my work for the week in one day and it was less than £50 worth so I was perfectly entitled to five sixths of my unemployment benefit for the week.  The other stipulation was that if I was offered a job, I would take it.  Initially, I would have packed up the window cleaning if I had been offered a job.  Remember though, this was back in 1991 and there were no jobs about - even in traditionally prosperous areas.
Of course, it didn't take more than a few weeks for me to start earning more than the £50ish per week at which time I signed off the dole.
Before anyone starts judging and jumping to conclusions, I have worked for 33 years and only been on UB for about 8 weeks in total (plus a few weeks sick leave when I had a major illness).
If it hadn't been for the very small amount of assistance at the beginning, I may not have bothered.  At the time there was a business start up scheme where the state would pay you a certain amount each week while you were getting your business started.  You had to be on the dole for 6 months to qualify for the scheme.  I reckon I saved the state a lot of money by doing things the way I did them.

O yes.  I did incur a smallish tax bill in my first year and the UB was regarded as part of my income so they got some of it back too   

[matt]

i do a house next door to a house that a "cowboy" does

when i say "cowboy" i dont regard him as such, but i guess most would here

he does a OK'ish job, he starts at 10 finish by 2, he earns enough for his nights beer money

my bet is he will be on some "dole money scheme" and gets his rent paid

now i have NO ISSUE with him at all, he charges the same as me, thus no undercutting of prices etc

i think the term "cowboy" is used to make some feel more superior  because they have nice vans etc etc etc

now i bet if some of you saw me in work, you might think "look at that cowboy" i drive a J reg Passett estate, i wear a M&S fleece hat, a fleece jacket with 2 fleeces underneath, coupled with a pair of jeans and a pair of workboots

i see no difference in my appearance than the "cowboy" i work next to on this said house

its easy to label others

[Londoner]

Shiner      I take your point and I would have done the same. The point about benefit fraud only really kicks in when it is a systematic fiddle. And we all know that it goes on bigtime.
The trouble is that window cleaning is just ideal for these people. They can work for cash, its fairly anonimus, and they can move around a bit to keep it that way.

[Londoner]

Matt   What difference does it make what you wear?  This weather you got to wrap up.
In my opinion the term cowboy applies to the attitude rather than anything else. But I do object to paying some scumbags rent etc etc while at the same time he is nicking work off me.
Benefit fraud is illegal I have no sympathy with these people. I work, I pay my tax

[matt]

Matt   What difference does it make what you wear?  This weather you got to wrap up.
In my opinion the term cowboy applies to the attitude rather than anything else. But I do object to paying some scumbags rent etc etc while at the same time he is nicking work off me.
Benefit fraud is illegal I have no sympathy with these people. I work, I pay my tax

i agree with you

BUT it has been said, if you dont have a van and a uniform, your not professional, this discussion went on last year sometime, and it was amazing the things people came out with, the idea's of granduar

[Ian_Giles]

For me the cowboy worker is much as Tosh had described, the cowboy will miss out as many windows as he can and still charge for cleaning them.
He may even stick an invoice in if they are not there and claim to have cleaned the windows even when he hasn't done so.
His work may well be of an appalling standard too....though this doesn't necessarily make him a cowboy in itself! I know of one who has been in the business for years and his standards on some stuff is awful

He might 'poach' work in an underhand way, i.e, claim that you have died/are ill/have moved out the area/have sold your work to him or even that he actually works for you! (and that has happened to me )
That was one of the ones that Tosh isn't to keen on.
Though perhaps calling people who grap work in this way a cowboy isn't accurate either...isn't it annoying? I can't think of the word I want to use to describe people like that...'Cowboy' just keeps staying in the front of my head and blotting out all other bloody words!!

It's hard to give the definitive description of a cowboy window cleaner isn't it?

Ian

[Ian_Giles]

Talking of that 'professional image', I have now gone the whole hog

I have the brand new van

All new clothes fully logo'd up, polo shirts Sweats, caps, beanies, and a fleece

The van has all been fully sign written too

It's got sod all to do with whether you may or may not be a cowboy, it comes down to what you can afford (or how far you're prepared to stick your neck out) and image & advertising.

You look out of your window and see two window cleaners, one of them is the 'me' of a couple of weeks ago, wrapped up in whatever rags I could get hold of to keep warm and operating out of the back of my hatchback.
The other cleaner is the new me, shiny, sign written van and wearing my 'uniform'
You want a window cleaner, which one will you choose?
Ok, you may go for the 'me' of a month ago in the hope I'll be cheaper, but the new 'me' has 'window cleaner' emblazoned all over his van and a telephone number you can see a mile off, no contest really is it?

I also do a lot of commercial stuff so it simply looks more professional to be as I now am.

Doesn't make me a better window cleaner, but it does give me a better image.


Ian

[Justin Ruggles]

Well said Ian. I agree 100%.

Justin

[simbo]

me too spot on!
it also gives customers more confidence in you, its now a very image consious sociaty remember, and you can charge more money usually
cheers simb0

[Andrew McCann]

Yes you can be a pro without the "trappings" ( Signed up vehicle etc )

I do agree with Ian, Justin and Simbo though.

I know a guy around here who does a great job, works from an old battered Escort Estate, Always has a fAg in his mouth ( I smoke BTW) wears old scruffy clothes and uses what I can only describe as dodgy equipment. Now.. some might (wrongly) describe him as a cowboy at first glance but he has been at it for over 20 years. On his own admission he doesn't exist as far as the taxman goes but he doesn't draw benefit or anything like that. I have chatted to him a few times now and you couldn't meet a nicer guy. He works his prices out at £7.00 per hour!!! Now.. if you take into account lost time through weather etc I doubt he actually makes the minimum wage but each to his own.

Heres my point now..  we both work in the same area/roads etc and for houses that he gets £7 or 8 for I get £25 Yes he has a full round but he probably struggles to make over £200 per week every week. Why then can I make that and  more in a full day on domestic?  IMAGE and ATTITUDE is the answer. I dont claim to do a better job than him but I do at least as good. Image etc is useless without good work.

On the real cowbow issue yes I have met one or two ( one who threatened me whilst I was up a ladder NOT to go back to a particular area) so they do exist but I would never want to do anything to harm folks like that other guy I described.

There's an old saying and it really is true.. Aptitude plus Attitude determines your Altitude. The beauty about this game more that any other I know is that you really are master of your own destiny.. its down to how hard you work.. not just window cleaning but also planning monitoring and marketing your business and how much you are prepared to invest in your future. I for one want to take it all the way because I have every good reasons to do so. It's all down to the individual and what you want from the trade and how much effort..time and investment you are prepared to put into it.

Andrew

[dai]

I can see your point Ian and I also see Matts.
When you make an appointment to see someone about comercial work, of course you present yourself as well as possible. Your means of transport though is away in the car park. The guy has no idea if you arrived in a battered old Escort van, [like mine] Or in a new Lexus. It is the impression you the person gives that's important.
You may have a brand new van and the latest omnipole system outside, but unless you can convey trust and integrity you won't get the job.
If you do get the job, he won't sack you because you have an old car, van, or DIY system.
He may well think, "God what have we got here" when he sees you, and may scrutanise your work. Once he knows you do a dam good job and your reliable, he won't give a monkeys.
I believe it's not how you arrive, but what you do when you get there.
It's also true of course that you only get one chance to make a first impressian.
If you have a brand new van, park it out front in a prominant position.
If your in an old banger, park it round the back.
 It's you the person your selling, not the service you provide. He has to take that on trust. DAI

[Ian_Giles]

Mm,
We've veered of tack a little, but I guess we're still in the general area of the post!

The image thing isn't to do with you going to an appointment, its about when you are out and about doing your business.
If I'm working in a commercial park, as various people are too-ing and fro-ing or looking out of their office windows I want to appear as professional as possible.

Ditto when I'm working in the high street or in a residential street, I want to be visible and my phone number to be out there for anyone to use.

If I am talking one to one with someone I think I generally come over quite well, but if I'm logo'd up in themed gear then it just adds that little bit extra.
I have to buy clothes anyway, so I might as well have my name and logo on it, doesn't cost much at all.
For all embroidered gear it is costing me £92 and for that I get a baseball cap, a beanie, 3 polo shirts, 2 sweats and a fleece.
And all 100% tax deductable too.
As of course will be the money spent on van signage, and fingers crossed it will also serve to bring in work and pay for itself.
I've coped quite happily for over 21 years now without any of these trappings...but I've always wanted them!

And now I've got them  



Ian

[windows_chepstow]

Ian_Giles has underwent a transformation.

I gave Ian a lift to collect his van after it was sign-written and he was in his new kit and it was the smartest I'd ever seen him.  I thought he was wearing 'smart-casual' attire.

I have heard Ian's Missis telling him off for going out with ripped shorts before!  He still went out in them mind.

I just hope he doesn't spoil the new image by not shaving in the morning; the natrually scruffy git he is.