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Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2005, 11:22:00 am »
Quote
Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole. 
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines.  HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David



Sorry Dave, but you are not right on that. The short duration does NOT refer to the time we spend up the ladder doing any individual window, but the time we spend up a ladder any given day.
The short duration was intended to apply to the occasional user. IE, shop keeper putting up a sign.
In any case, if you re-read the legislation, the section on how to use them would show the lenghts we should go to to secure the ladders.

I'm like you doing the risk assessment first, but I know what the results will be. So do most WCers, sadly many have their heads in the sand.

THE BEAR

Evening Mr BEAR

Hope youve had a good day.  In reply to your point.  Please refer to
www.hse.gov.uk/falls/downloads/6.pdf
Page 41,
Even a good old Bear can clean a window in less than 30 mins!!

Your forgetting your risk assessment that you do prior to doing any job.
List the alternatives to working at height, WFP is in it.

Plus the quote speaks of a painter, who has no alternative.

I work on the basis taht you always obey the last command.

Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole.
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines. HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David




Have you not read the press release from HSE 12/9/05?

"these regs do not ban ladders but they say they should be used ONLY when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out"

quite clear................................THe praticticality of wfp has been proved without any doubt even for residential work, Bury your head in the sand all you like but there's no escaping the facts. We changed once (chamois to squegee) we will have to do it again if we have not already done so. Whats the big deal it doesn't have to cost the earth. You get it back in no time anyway the speed you can work with a pole. I got so much more work in the 6 weeks since I changed I dont know what to do with it all, even the most picky customers have said they are happy with the results. If you use wfp properly it does a far better job than trad.


Stephen right, the last word was that press release.

Let me make my position clear.
I dont have WFP yet, I really dont want the expense, I dont want to embrace new methods. But I will, because the regs are getting clearer.

The Bear, (who can just about clean a window in 30 mins ;) )

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25392
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2005, 11:49:28 am »
In March I started using my wfp (in anticipation of the new HS regs) on my existing round. I introduced it gradually and now 90% of upstairs windows and many ground floor are "poled". By Jan 1st 2006 My last two days work (non-bayed small semi's and modern terraces) will be poled too.

The only exceptions then will be two houses where I use my ladder for access to a flat roof to do the windows above (which are not easily accessible with a pole) and three old Georgian framed properties where the frames are ill fitting and water would get in. (They have level access all round and are not very high). If I think that is no longer a good enough reason to use ladders (and I admit it is a moot point already) then the customer will have a hard choice to make - My way or the high way!

Also, one security cabin which requires going up two steps to get to the transom windows. I could use a pole but lorries come in and out regularly and my risk assessment is that it is safer to use a short ladder than be out in the roadway with my hose and pole.

The regs are tightening - the September clarification, to my reading, is only slightly open to debate - if a practical alternative method is available then I must use it. Even at the low end of the market wfp is now practical and it is certainly affordable.

INSURANCE WORRIES

Ok - so I might ignore the regs and continue for months or years without being called to account. But what happens when either I get fined or worse fall off my ladder, or my ladder falls on someone or something?

Will the insurance folk say the essence of "hang on - in that situation it is our opinion you should have not been using a ladder so we aren't paying up?" Do I want to be having a legal wrangle from my hospital bed? Does my widow want to have to fight to claim any insurance due? Or do I want to fork out a couple of grand repairing the bonnet of the shiny motor I landed on? Because I think that may be the scenario if I use a ladder when my insurer says I shouldn't have.

And if they can save on a big claim do you think they will just say "Ahhh! Poor chap - let's help him out and pay up!" Oink flap! Oink flap! I see a flying pig.

As our American cousins say "It's time to wake up and smell the coffee."
It's a game of three halves!

brett walker

  • Posts: 1943
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2005, 01:01:28 pm »
Lets look ahead in to the future if ladders are banned

I myself have already made the move to wfp doing half my work so i'm ready for a ban i can still work.
But what if a window cleaner cannot clean windows by ladder anymore this will put a lot of window cleaners out of work, because of cost and circumstances.  Will this result in a shortage of w-c's allowing wfp guys to push the prices up or will there be a lot of w-c's ignoring a ban and still carrying on?  Will there be anyone to go round checking that the ban is being enforced.

There are a lot of trad w-c's that have been doing it years and just simply don't want to change, don't get me wrong i'm all for wfp but a lot of people will lose their lively hood.

Looking round my area and surrounding areas there are not many wfp w-c's they are mostly trad, do you think that this change will come sooner or will it take years ?

If there is a ban how many customers will still employ ladder uses knowing there is a ban, because they do not like wfp or simply they cannot get wfp w-c because area doesnt suit, there are a lot of points to look at and im sure there will be a lot more.  I'm not saying any of these are right or wrong but have to be considered.

Times are changing and new technology

Brett

mark f

  • Posts: 212
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2005, 02:10:19 pm »
i think people will gradually change over during the next couple of years, and if the hse tighten up for us window cleaners still further then the majority will just take a week out from work fork out the cash get the gear set up and carry on.

  I think that the new wfp users biggest worry is the customers reaction to the equipment, but when the hse clamp down, this worry will be removed cos we wont have a choice and nor will the customer.
 
    Where i work there have been no wfp users at all, but ive just heard one has made the switch in an area i work with very old georgian windows etc not typically suited for wfp. If he gets on ok then it will make my transition a lot smoother knowing the competition is on the same level.

D.Salkeld_Ltd

  • Posts: 951
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2005, 06:35:17 pm »
One last thing I want to say on this subject.

It is a shame us experienced,safety conciouse, professional tradesmen are beeing forced to use expencive equipment which, in my opinion, is not particulary neccassery because other idiots have been foolish with dangerouse equipment.

Why doesn.t the HSE set up a licencing system (like road vehicals) with compulery training for professional ladder use.

But I do agree that eventualy ladders will be banned from window cleaning because that is the way the HSE have embarked on.

In principle, I have decided to go over to WFP sometime in the future because I will have no choice.  I want it to be the right system for my business so I will carry out extencive research which I would be gratefull of your help.

David Salkeld
Not Perfect - But Honest

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2005, 07:10:56 pm »
It is a shame us experienced,safety conciouse, professional tradesmen are beeing forced to use expencive equipment which, in my opinion, is not particulary neccassery because other idiots have been foolish with dangerouse equipment.

David Salkeld

David,

You can be up and running with a basic WFP system for less than £600.

Don't feel forced into it.  You don't have to spend £3000+.

It's a smart business move that'll pay for itself in more ways than one.

For example your recreational time will improve as you'll be less tired. 


John Conroy

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2005, 05:00:42 pm »
Have to agree with Mr BEAR I hate this term if it short duration, window cleaning industry is like no other industry where YES one window is short duration, but the problem is there are thousands of short durations in a month and so thousands of times you can be at risk.