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steve k

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2005, 03:04:29 pm »
Page 15, issue 4 (October) of PWC has a response from Ian Greenwood, head of HSE Falls from Height Programme.
Worth a look.

bumper

  • Posts: 872
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2005, 03:27:14 pm »
what about firemen they climb ladders, what do they do watch em burn  ;D

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2005, 05:11:44 pm »
what about firemen they climb ladders, what do they do watch em burn  ;D

Bumper, read the regulation.  Emergency services are covered and exempt.

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2005, 05:31:54 pm »
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.


Shiner,

Its classed as a listed building therefore no upvc windows can be installed.

Scaffolders dream, Now thats what you should be getting into.

Regards Nel.

telboy

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2005, 06:00:56 pm »
It won't happen.

What about those who don't want to(or can't) shell out big money?

What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?
What about roofers? - A tile-fitting-pole?
What about ariel and Sky fitters? - A better-reception-pole? ::)

There'll be a huge to-do if there's any talk of trying to ban ladders.
It will be a national headline, and mass petitions and defiance.

They won't put half a million-odd people out of work. ;)

Rog.
REGARDING SQUEAKY'S


MORE AND MORE  PAINTERS BUILDERS ROOFERS NOW HAVE TO USE SCAFFOLDING

THINK OF THE VICAR WHO HAD TO SHELL OUT £1500.00 TO HAVE HIS LIGHT BULBS CHANGED

DOING OUTSIDE MAINTAINANCE ON YOUR HOME IS GOING TO COST A FORTUNE

BEST START UP A SCAFFOLDING BUSINESS ??? ???

TEL BOY ;)

Paul Coleman

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2005, 06:16:20 pm »
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.


Shiner,

Its classed as a listed building therefore no upvc windows can be installed.

Scaffolders dream, Now thats what you should be getting into.

Regards Nel.

I suppose I should have guessed that it might have been listed really when you called it an old Victorian hospital.  UPVC wouldn't look right on a place like that.

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2005, 06:40:52 pm »
Tell you what I've been doing some old Large terraced houses today.

Really high buggers, to make matters worse.they've planted a jungle right in front of the windows, I feel like Tarzan traversing through the undergrowth before I can reach those windows.

I,m thinking cant wait till I do these with wfp. Then horrer of Horrers I reliaze the wooden frames are abouselty in crappy condition.

Do I try cleaning them with wfp knowing i'm going to do a real crappy job?But at least I'm safe or do I still carry on traditionl?


UHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Nel

williamx

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2005, 07:28:11 pm »
neil

just clean the glass and leave the frames well aLONE

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2005, 07:38:17 pm »
ummm.

Even on a first clean?

Nel

williamx

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2005, 08:10:31 pm »
Neil

On a first clean if they are really dirty clean with wfp but add a drop of gg3 or 4 then rinse off with pure water.

rosskesava

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2005, 08:33:35 pm »
Hi Tosh

Quote
So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.

No they are not banned, illegal or anything else unless over 9 metres.

What is illegal though is using them in a way that is concidered dangerous etc.

At present, and this is the law, a window cleaner only needs to have looked at alternatives and considered that a ladder is the best option and if he takes all due caution while using the ladder then he is 100% legal.

If he takes a risk while using the ladder in anyway, i.e. no type of safety device for the feet, overstretching, on one leg, and so on, then that is contrary to the WAHL.

Ladders may be banned in the future but they haven't been yet.

Cheers

Steve Lowe

  • Posts: 177
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2005, 09:00:15 pm »
Hi Ross
           I attended the hse meeting at Summerfield House along with several others and we are due out a hse statement shortly but you are right ladders are not banned but can only be used where a safer alternative cannot be used after undertaking a risk assesment Of course you will get window cleaners carrying on like they always have but as soon as an accident happens this is when there problems will start.

Steve
Steven J Lowe MBICSc

Lowes Cleaning Services Limited
www.lowescleaning.com

rosskesava

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2005, 09:23:25 pm »
Hi Steve

I forgot to add the risk assessment bit.

That's one other area of H & S legislation that is not really clearly defined in terms of the self employed w/c. There's no clearly defined benchmark by which he can judge whether his risk assessment is complete or not or even whether it is viable or not.

Quote
Of course you will get window cleaners carrying on like they always have but as soon as an accident happens this is when there problems will start.

How true is that. I've been reading a whole pile of stuff about how those that ignore common sense and the WAHL's are in the main the ones that have done so in the past and how to target those types of workers that have that mentality and who work at hieght.

It was scary reading. I think the authorities intend to clamp down very hard but are at present being a bit sort of 'nice' about it just for a short while.

Cheers

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2005, 10:01:24 pm »
In what way do they mean consider safer options? Ok I look at a job and I consider it, then decide to do it off a ladder. I have considered it havn't I.
My pole system has been down for a week, got my Veristream back today so back to WFP tomorrow. What was I to do? Take a week off?
Accidents will happen. It's a fact of life. Thousands of kids are killed every year crossing the road. It's tragic I know. Should kids be banned from crossing the road? I don't know where people get the stats from concerning deaths of window cleaners falling from height. Every time I see them they are different. 2, 10,14.
How many window cleaners are killed in road accidents every year?
I go onto WFP and my insurers for the last 12 years AXA now decide not to cover window cleaners for accidents.
I don't drink and drive, I always wear a seat belt, but I will not give up going up a ladder in the morning when I can legally go paragliding in the afternoon. It defies all logic.
Incidently, my mrs and me have had our best day earnings wise ever today.
Same work as we do every month. Today I did the tops off a ladder and the WFP system left in the house. Where am I going wrong? Dai

rosskesava

Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2005, 12:51:12 am »
Hi Dai

It's not about whether accidents happen while crossing the road. That is for those who legislate about road safety. Accidents will happen and will always happen. It's about reducing risk and reducing the chances of an accident hapening.

Alternivately, just because there is a risk crossing the road you therefore take a risk using a ladder?

The H & S not only have to consider safety. If that was their only mandate then everything that would be likely to cause an accident would be banned. Imagine that scenario. They do have to take into account that business has to run.

Imagine if H & S had to legislate on safety only about driving without taking into account anything else? Or about North Sea oil? There would be no cars on the road and no gas or oil.

Safety is about understanding the risk and taking precautions to to minimise that risk.

They have a duty also in terms of industry and that essential part of business that many don't want to hear about and which we all understand - profit.

As I wrote above, it is legal to use ladders.

Also, the law distinguishes between leasuire pursuits and employemnt. One is a risk taken according to freedom of will, and the other is pursuit of a living wage. Imagine if there were no laws regarding the workplace?

Quote
Today I did the tops off a ladder and the WFP system left in the house. Where am I going wrong?

Provided you had looked at the alternatives and decided the way you decided to  work was the best for the job being done, and you took all due care and attention to the safety aspects involves for that method and applied them, then that is legal.

I defy anyone to prove otherwise and back it up because I can back up what I'm saying.

Cheers


PS I've added this later - last year 2 known deaths occured to w/c's whilst working. How many people were injured or died as a result of cleaning their own windows, I can find no data. Deaths from DIY, now that is a different story and seems to be missed in the WAHL's.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2989
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2005, 06:42:52 am »
Hi Ross,

I love your replies on H & S!

you give very considered answers, always well thought out, in the main I completely agree with you.
But there is the arguement the H & S can use...are there viable alternatives?

In almost every case there are. In 18 plus months I have only had to climb a ladder to actually CLEAN windows on a handful of occasions, and this was because it wasn't viable to do it with WFP.

You can break everything down and make your arguements incredibly complex as you try and fathom your way through H & S legislation.
The deeper you dig, the less clear it all becomes, and you can end out making a case for almost any point of view.

There are no alternatives to crossing the road, there are thousands and thousands of miles of roads, milliions of houses are linked to them, crossing them is utterly unavoidable, ergo it is an arguement that cannot really be used.

But when talking about ladders and their use it CAN be broken down to a simple couple of questions, and it really matters little about correct and safe usage of them.

Are there alternative methods? Are those methods reasonable and practical? Are they safer than using ladders?

When the answers to those questions are no, then you use ladders and apply the correct guidelines when using them.

According to the magazine, these are really the kind of questions that are going to be increasingly applied, the legality of ladder use isn't really the question, there are times when use of a ladder is the only practical solution.

When you apply this simple criteria, it is an easy thing to begin to enforce it, they are going to do so, we all know that, it is only a question of time......until then, keep climbing those ladders!!

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2005, 08:04:51 am »
Nothing's definate as I said before.
They're not going to put huge amounts of people out of work and ruin their unemployment figures.

It seems to me that wfp users are praying for this to happen so they can justify their pricey purchase to others. ::)

I don't own a wfp system, so it's not an option for me, and therefore using a ladder is the safest method available to me.

I could dangle on a rope from the roof, but no, I'm doing it the safest way available to me - hence I am within their rather vague guidelines.

Rog.

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2005, 08:17:51 am »
scare mungering thats all its about :P there are people who cannot wait
for those words,that are not coming,ladders are banned,its not practical
to do this :Dthey are just saying if ??? :-\ there is another way to clean other than use a ladder,ie pole then do so,so the wfp cant crack open the champers, :othe fact is we all need all of the tools all of the time 8) ;)
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2005, 10:25:44 am »
It is interesting to see the steady change that has taken place over just a year.  I remember similar topics to this being discussed here not long after the proposal doc came out, and the attitude of many was "oh it'll take 10 years to come about" and "they have been saying they're gonna do this for years" and "nothing will ever change".

And here we are the regs have been law for 6 months and they are certainly having an impact!  Over time it has become apparent to many more window cleaners what can be considered "reasonably practicable" and what isn't.

Window cleaners are not the only trade affected by the regs, but our industry has been one of the most affected.  The reason is that, by sheer coincidence, they have come along at a time when a new method is starting to be widely available for window cleaning that doesn't involve work at height, and this is not really the case for other trades.

Yes painters, decorators, roofers etc all use ladders and work at height.  The regs won't affect them quite so much, because they don't really have an alternative.  (Even if they use scaffolding, this is still work at height) but us window cleaners do have an alternative, and because of that it is harder for us to be able to justify work at height.

Another point to bear in mind is cost.  Normally, in order to comply with new H&S regs, companies must spend money.  When the HSE drafts new legislation it has to take into consideration the cost of compliance.  It will not make unreasonable demands on an industry.  But, with window cleaning, this situation is somewhat different.

Even before the regulations came about, window cleaners were changing over to using poles because they were finding that they were not only safer but also faster too.  This being the case, window cleaners cannot really argue that the cost of using the safer system is prohibitively expensive, because the efficiency advantage makes economic sense even without any safety benefit.  The HSE knows this, and I think that is a potential basis for them to require window cleaners to use pole systems, except where the nature of the site doesn't allow it.

10 years ago, ammendments to the Health & Safety at Work Act became law in the UK, and contained some of the first ever work-at-height regulations in Britain.  This came about becuase statistics showed that falls from height, and particularly falls from ladders, was causing an unacceptable number of deaths and serious injuries to workers.

The accident rate has not improved over the last ten years, and  so now the Temporary Work at Height Regulations restrict working at height, and again particularly the use of ladders, even further.  There isn't really any other way that the use of ladders could be restricted any more.  In ten years time, I think that if the accident rate doesn't improve, then we really will be facing an outright ban on using ladders.

It's tempting to think that couldn't hapen here, but don't you believe it.  Holland has had an outright ban on ladders in place since it first adopted the European Directive, and several other European states are considering the same.  All trades, from window cleaners to roofers have to find other means to work (usually cherry pickers) and this has meant only larger companies that can afford the outlay have survived in those trades.

As window cleaners, we need to be able to use ladders.  There are situations that just can't be done any other way.  But in order for us to be able to continue to use them when necessary, we also need to make sensible choices about when they aren't the most appropriate method.  If, as an industry, we prove that we can't make that choice sensibly, then eventually the HSE will certainly do it for us, and that really would be a disaster for window cleaning.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2005, 12:41:18 pm »
 ;)Yes well put philip  ;)that would be a problem :-\
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.