[windows_chepstow]

In another thread, Nel asked Ian his views on ladder usage.  I've jumped in with a new post.

Ian what does it say in the mag that you think ladders will become extinct?

cheers Nel.

Well the Regulations, as they are say you can't use ladders for window cleaning without considering the safer alternatives to working at height.

Ian Greenwood, head of HES's Falls from Height Programme said:

These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should only be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out.  A risk assessment must show that the task is low risk and of short duration, or that there are site features that mean other equpment is not appropriate.  If so, then ladders can be used

Can you tell I'm a touch-typist?

Philip Hanson, editior of PWC Magazine says that he's been told by HSE that trades such as window cleaners and painters can't cite the 'short duration' as a defence to using ladders (as in it only takes a few minutes to clean a bedroom window) because you're up a ladder so much during a working day.

Therefore, for routine window cleaning, ladders are effectively banned already!

I think. 

But no-one from HSE has clearly stated that to my knowledge.  You've got to read between the lines.  The guidance notes to the regulations aren't much cop either.

They start of with these rules apply to the self employed and then cite employees and employer responsibilities.

Then, on the other hand I've hear rumours that there will be a ladder ban enforced in 2007.  This ties in with a post I remember reading where Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag) in which he suggested there would be two year lead up time where you could get yourself off ladders and onto WFP.

This could be at total ladder ban maybe?  Not just one which says you can use ladders where there are no other alternatives.

I'm confused too.

Anyone the wiser?  Can anyone shed some light on the '2007 ladder ban' rumour (which I'm helping to perpetuate - a chargeble offence in the army, as rumours are never good for morale)?

[Sir Squeaky]

It won't happen.

What about those who don't want to(or can't) shell out big money?

What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?
What about roofers? - A tile-fitting-pole?
What about ariel and Sky fitters? - A better-reception-pole? :

There'll be a huge to-do if there's any talk of trying to ban ladders.
It will be a national headline, and mass petitions and defiance.

They won't put half a million-odd people out of work.

Rog.

[windows_chepstow]

Roger,

If you read the rules, I think they've already done it.

I believe there's already been a 'furore' in other industries too; such as roofers.

We're just not complying!

That's me included; I still use ladders.

[rosskesava]

I may be wrong but I don't think so but wasn't the then WAHD (now the WAHL) also about the safe use of ladders in order to reduce injuries?

Cheers

[H h20]

If know one has read it then here it is,Gaz
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm

[windows_chepstow]

If know one has read it then here it is,Gaz
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm

I've read it, Gaz.  Part of it was in my original post.  It seems to say that 'ladders are a last resort'!

One part of me says 'Wahay', I can ride the back of a ladder ban.  I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).

But another part of me says that this would be wrong.  We all make our own choices and if we want to risk ourselves, cleaning from a ladder; then we're not hurting anyone else in the process.

So who cares?

But it's definately a WFP marketing tool!

[Sir Squeaky]

I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).

Wouldn't get you much mate!

Most of them don't want wet spotty windows.

[windows_chepstow]

I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).

Wouldn't get you much mate!

Most of them don't want wet spotty windows.

I'd like to see the results of your actual survey, Roger, but I think I wouldn't get any of your customers because they like you!  Sometimes it's not how clean the windows are, it's a 'personality contest' of sorts.

I know one of your customers (not personally), when they moved from your round, found a new window cleaner then sacked him because they found you again.  And the window cleaner they had was a good un'.  So that's a compliment.

But you're right Roger, most customers don't want wet-spotty windows!

You just stick with your ladder.  I've enough competition round here.

[Sir Squeaky]

Ha ha!

Yeah only joking, it's mainly a case of them knowing me for 8 years and used to the way I do it.
They're happy enough.

I've looked at a lot of my accounts and found I couldn't do quite a lot of it with a pole anyway, those ones you mentioned at the top of Hardwick Ave. for a start.
Wouldn't fancy getting it around the back and over fences, and couldn't do the ones on the roofs.

A lot of my jobs aren't very straightforward, but sometimes a pole could help.

Enough anyway, we're veering off-topic.

Cheers, Rog.

[windows_chepstow]

So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.

[neil100]

I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

[Paul Coleman]

So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.

They probably are.  I do think that you're allowed to hop over a roof and down the other side though as there doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternatve to that.  The proble with this is that we would probably be expected to hump a backpack and a pole over the top too.  I think I would be doing the back windows of such a place with the ladder that I climbed over with - especially if I'm out of sight.  Saves heaving all the equipment over with me.

[Paul Coleman]

I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.

[gaza]

Ive just been on three sites were they will not allow trad ladder use ,succeded in gaining
two sites and  the third one is on its wayabout 240 houses to go at so keep on usuing ladders lads and do me a favour.

  gaza

[Sir Squeaky]

Gaza it will be interesting when you come to do the intial cleans without a ladder.

How are you going to hack off cement and silicon with a wet brush?

Have the builders removed all of the protective plastic for you?

Wfp's useless until someone's prepared it for you.

[ValueValeting]

What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?

i remembered seeing this on QVC many years ago, http://www.homeright.com/showitem.asp?zitem=1

I'll get me coat.

[steve k]

each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.
Windows that can not be cleaned effectively with WFP would make the safer option of WFP impractical for that particular site and so could be cleaned with ladders.
If so, all practical safety measures must be used if using ladders.

Painters should use scaffolding as do roofers.
Sky installers now have to wear helmets and fall arrest harness and use ladder stand offs.
The arrest harness is not able to be attached to a fall restraint but still has to be worn.
It would be impractical due to cost and temporary nature of work for them to erect scaffolding.

[Ian_Giles]

each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.

As you are spending all day, every day up and down a ladder, this argument won't hold water with H & S.

I have even stopped working off flat roofs now (the felt variety) On the other forum (I think) there was one guy whose foot had gone through, apportioning blame and fault was a huge headache, blow that for a game of soldiers, I explain that to customers, just not worth the risk or bad feeling.

Getting off ladders is something all serious workers need to do, the sooner you do it the better, 18 months ago there were only a couple using WFP around here, I'm seeing them all over the place now.
Whether we like it or not, at some point in the future we will no longer be climbing ladders.

Ian

[Paul Coleman]

each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.

As you are spending all day, every day up and down a ladder, this argument won't hold water with H & S.

I have even stopped working off flat roofs now (the felt variety) On the other forum (I think) there was one guy whose foot had gone through, apportioning blame and fault was a huge headache, blow that for a game of soldiers, I explain that to customers, just not worth the risk or bad feeling.

Getting off ladders is something all serious workers need to do, the sooner you do it the better, 18 months ago there were only a couple using WFP around here, I'm seeing them all over the place now.
Whether we like it or not, at some point in the future we will no longer be climbing ladders.

Ian

That's an interesting point about apportioning blame Ian.  One of my feet went through a flat roof once - fortunately just the felt and decking.  Luckily, there was a tarpaulin in the garden so I made it watertight.  It happened during a period of alternating blistering heat and torrential rain a few years back.  I think the felt joint melted and allowed the rain in.  The roof was over 20 years old and well overdue for replacement.  We exchanged insurance details.  His house insurance coughed up for a fully decked roof.  The old roof was chipboard (now illegal I believe).  The replacement was marine ply and some type of silicon finish which was guaranteed for 20 years.
Anyway, because he claimed on his insurance, he paid a £50 excess which he wanted from me.  I pointed out to him that because I put my foot through his roof, he had a brand new roof for £50 (the job cost was about £800) and that the roof was in poor condition and badly needed replacement anyway i.e. I saved him £750.  He must have thought about it because on my next visit he said to forget about it - then promptly cancelled the window cleaning (no prob as it was only a £6 job anyway).
Another interesting point arises from this though.  The instance I've cited was just some damage to a roof.  If the incident had caused me to fall from the roof (or through it) and caused me harm, I feel that I would have had good cause to sue him (or his insurance co.) for the injuries.  I say this because the roof was not maintained and the only way to clean two of his windows was by climbing onto the roof.  I say that was permission to climb onto the roof was implied even though not directly discussed.  Also, he had previously seen me up there and never told me not to.
A legal minefield I think.

[williamx]

It does not matter how you read the new regulations its how your local council and H & S office will.

If you want to carry on using ladders then do so, but remember when the council gestapo come a knocking, don't cry about it.