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neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 09:26:44 am »
FACT.

You are never 100% safe up a ladder, their is allways an element of risk.

If you are going  up and down the ladder quickly to earn more money the risk element increases.

My brother was a steel erector, was, because he had an accident while working at hight, Fracuterd skull,broken arms, broken shoulder, broken pelvis, Broken leg. Broken ribs, crushed spine. Dead when he hit the ground but brought back to life after 2 mins by the nurse on sight.

Hight kills. My freind a w/c had a fall 20 yrs ago, nearly lost his arm because of compliciations afterwards.

My uncle a w/c all his life, off work 6 months after falling through a con roof.

Since telling my customers I'm going wfp on safety grounds,they all say its very SENSIBLE. If you want to stay traditionl, fine. I'm not knocking it. I've done it for 26 yrs. But their is a far safer alternative and as you get older going up and down a ladder it as a big impact on lifestyle. You get tired far more, which impacts on your quality of life.

I just hope you never become an accident statisect.Your health is far more important then the methord you choose.

Regards Nel

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2005, 01:09:43 pm »
you can use poles just put your backflip on the end of it sorted ;Dyou do not have to go down the thousands of pounds rd to clean windows :-\ ;D
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2005, 01:23:01 pm »
If ever the day comes that people will pay more for traditonal cleans I'll do them.
Just because I now use the pole doesn't mean I'v forgotten how to use ladders. I still do when it's quicker. Squeaky clean does have a point about more hassle with WFP. I seem to spend more of my time at weekends fixing this or tweaking that. It's been over a week now since I sent my veristream back. I have been promised it's return tomorrow.
I hate open ladders, they are dangerous, no daubt about it. I converted my ladders for window cleaning  when I first started and have converted every one since. I have a big alloy stabliser bar accross the bottom that sits on large rubber feet made from a car tyre. It has never slipped once. The top goes to a point with a large rubber bobbin off a boat trailer in the middle. where the ladder goes against the sill is covered with a piece of none slip shower mat. If I'm working on sloping grass I stick a pin in the ground behind it.
 Ladders can be made a lot safer. Dai

Stephen@Belper

  • Posts: 32
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2005, 05:39:32 pm »
What kind of question is that, is does make me laugh sometimes when people bang on about wfp, I think some people forget that is was probably a sqeegee and a ladder that got them started in the first place. :-\
actualy it was Chamois leather and scrim that I started on so I've probably been at it a little longer than you. If we hadn't moved with the times and started using the squeege, then the bucket on a belt where would we be today, history and the same will happen to anyone who refuses to progress today. Change is nothing new, you just have to get on with it and progress or get left behind. As for people who say wfp doesn't do a good job, its not wfp that doesn't do a good job it is the operator who doesn't know what he's doing. You can always tell a wfp cleaned window, they shine like no other and my customers notice that and tell me so, in fact I had an old lady come out the other day and say, "that machine you've got is brilliant, the windows are so clean" I have only ever lost 2 customers to WFP, and they were upstairs only. I was more than happy for them to go as I've picked up so much more work as people have seen me with the wfp and come over to ask if I can fit them in. I have always moved with the times and benefited from doing so.

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2005, 07:11:20 pm »
They still will never replace the squee gee,I am not anti wfp,but if you want to talk safety,then wfp could be a hazard as well,wait for the Accident then all the screams come,so for those who keep knocking ladders,think about your 40 ft 60 ft poles and the potential damage they could do,in the wrong hands ;)the Health and safety could have a field with them :-\ so ladders are not all bad :D
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2989
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2005, 07:23:48 pm »
I still use both methods everyday, WFP can't do everything, and traditioinal skill will never go away, it is only the ladder use that will go.
Any of you checked out the window cleaner mag this month?
Big article on H & S, anyone who thinks they will be window cleaning of ladders in a few years time had best think again.

Trad skill will always be needed. it is a basic skill of window cleaning, and it will take those who come into window cleaning with only the WFP a long time to master.

Roger (Squeaky) is quite wrong, half a dozen houses close together will be done quicker with WFP.
A standard window will take the average trad cleaner 90 seconds to clean (I'm not talking about race speed either)
A standard window is 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light, one wider, taller opening pane and the normal pane of glass under the long thin opening light.
 90 seconds...
WFP is 30 seconds, tops.

and that is well within just about anybody's comfort zone, AND it also includes the frames.
It is EASIER to get it wrong with WFP, no argument there, but you can still make mistakes with trad too, and there is alway a a sticky film left behind...thats ALWAYS, no matter how good you are, no matter what liquid you use, there is always that film, and dust sticks to it.
the qualitiy of the job is down to the window cleaner and his/her experience, not the tool they use.

On a georgian or leaded window the WFP will clean it faster than you could dry scrim it.


Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2005, 07:48:00 pm »
Ian,

Shush mate. 

WFP is rubbish.  Roger don't get one; nor anyone else living in or around the South East Wales area; there's enough of us 'sheep' here already.

Complete twaddle.  You'll lose your round then have to start from scratch again; with ladders.

Waste of money and does a rubbish job.  It only cleans the frames.  Honest.

I'll only keep using mine 'cos I'm scared of heights.

Baaa Baaaa

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2005, 07:56:40 pm »
Ian what does it say in the mag that you think ladders will become extinct?

cheers Nel.

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2005, 08:39:57 pm »
Ian,

Shush mate. 

WFP is rubbish.  Roger don't get one; nor anyone else living in or around the South East Wales area; there's enough of us 'sheep' here already.

Complete twaddle.  You'll lose your round then have to start from scratch again; with ladders.

Waste of money and does a rubbish job.  It only cleans the frames.  Honest.

I'll only keep using mine 'cos I'm scared of heights.

Baaa Baaaa

Tosh I nearly said the same thing this afternoon, wfp total rip off.

Roy ;D

kingfisher

  • Posts: 128
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2005, 11:33:39 pm »
Has enyone on this forum ever gone over to WFP then changed there mind and go back to traditonal?

Kev

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2005, 11:38:00 pm »
I'll let you know one day. ;D

Not.

Oh and Ian,

30 seconds to a standard window?
5 seconds to extend pole and 5 to un-extend it.
That leaves 20 secs, to do 3 large and 1 small pane.

So, that's about 5 seconds each to scrub off all the recent grease (right in the corners please), and rinse off thoroughly.
Can't see how you can even do the sills...

I think you'll find it's more like 45-60 seconds.

As for 90 seconds trad?  More like 50-60 for me, so nothing to gain really.

Rog.


Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2989
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2005, 08:47:44 am »
Sigh, Roger, Roger......
It no good you know Rog, WFP is quicker per window, you can run but you can't hide ;D

In a RACE, trad will win, you only have to see Turbo Terry in action to see that.

And it is unlikely you will clean the window I described in my previous post in under 1 minute, you might if you treat it like a race, but that is very different.

Windows do not get covered in grease either, water alone will not remove grease, grease is not water soluable.

Over the years I have done a great many 'proper' time and motion studies, and the time taken for the window described is 90 seconds, not counting positioning the ladder, climbing up and climbing down the ladder. That is cleaning time only.

I have also watched other window cleaners and stop-watched them too.
I was chatting to another window cleaner last month, there happened to be yet another one across the road, cleaning exactly the window I have described, I timed him....yep, 90 seconds.

He wasn't as quick as you Roger, I do accept you are pretty quick (lets face it, I trained you 8)) But he wasn't a slouch either.

Done correctly the WFP will get into the corners far more thoroughly than trad, sills aren't a problem either, if it is an existing account of your own, the sills will be clean anyway, and a quick wipe is all that is needed, you are continually rinsing them as you are cleaning the glass.

When I pull up to a house (prior to the van) I would pop the hatch, pull out pole hose and pole, turn on pump, pinch hose,  walk to furthest point, extend pole and clean the upstairs of the house, lower the pole and clean the downstairs of the house. walk back to car, and pack gear away.
At this point, the packing away is slower than putting a ladder on a roof rack, you would gain a minute on me here.
Getting the gear to the first window to clean would not be very different though.

More than a couple of houses close together, the ones where you wold park up the car and walk from house to house doing it trad, well I spend 5 minutes getting out the trolley and connecting everything up.
If it needed more water than the trolley could carry then I would drop off a couple of containers first.
Wheeling a trolley around is very fast...unless you run, and then its even quicker ;D ;D
The pole can be extended as fast as you can climb up and down a ladder, if you wanted to race up and down the ladder then you are welcome, you'd also be kind of stupid...thats really asking for trouble.

The faster you go, the more errors you will make, being very fast with trad is bloody hard work, and mistakes will happen.
Being fast with WFP...er...well, it isn't hard, you simply don't need to rush. 30-40 seconds for that standard window is well within even the slowest of workers comfort zone.
For the trad window cleaner, to acheive that kind of time he is going to be bloody flying, few quick ones will match that time, the average window cleaner certainly won't.
The AVERAGE window cleaner will take around 90 SECONDS.

Cleaning time will be quicker on an average house with WFP, but time would be lost in the packing up and moving on to the next one, but over a days work the WFP user will end out doing that days work 25-30% faster.
Thats also assuming that the work in question is lots of small houses, all with straight forward, easy clean windows.
Slip in some large acounts, or georgian and leaded windows, then WFP is so much faster it isn't worth the effort trying to compare times.
And if you are a competant and fussy window cleaner, even with WFP your quality will match that or exceed that of the trad cleaner, remember, quality depends not on the tools, but on the operator, and that of course applies equally to both trad and WFP.
they will also be less tired, and though you might fall over, you can't fall OFF the floor ;)

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Paul Coleman

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2005, 09:33:18 am »
Has enyone on this forum ever gone over to WFP then changed there mind and go back to traditonal?

Kev

Well I've thought about it but I'm told that everybody does during the first few weeks.  I've been breaking myself into it transitionally.  My legs are fine but my arms ache.  Still, maybe those boffins down at the BWCA can lend me a pair of splints tomorrow  ;D

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2005, 11:52:12 am »
give it time the wfp will it stand the test of time ??? :-\ a lot of strain on your body if you use this all day long, :P
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

telboy

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2005, 12:20:40 pm »
WHEN I FIRST STARTED THERE WERE NO SQUEE GEES

WE JUST HAD SCRIMS

YOU TRY CLEANING INSIDE A SHOP WINDOW ON A SUNNY DAY WITH JUST A COUPLE OF BITS OF SCRIM

THEN THE SQUEE GEES ARRIVED I THOUGHT I WAS IN HEAVEN

IT WAS SO MUCH QUICKER

NOW IV'E GOT A W/F POLE SYSTEM AND WORK IS SO MUCH EASIER
BUT I WOULD NEVER BE WITHOUT MY SQUEE GEES

BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(


TEL BOY ;)

ANGEL C/S






Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2005, 05:56:30 pm »
HERE HERE ;D
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2005, 06:03:29 pm »
BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(
I like you Telboy.  Even if you did call me "Streaky Clean" once ;D

What about those who only do the tops wfp, and then squeegee the bottoms?
Two sets of kit? What's that all about?  ???

Rog.

Paul Coleman

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2005, 06:10:38 pm »
BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(
I like you Telboy.  Even if you did call me "Streaky Clean" once ;D

What about those who only do the tops wfp, and then squeegee the bottoms?
Two sets of kit? What's that all about?  ???

Rog.

For me it's about water preservation as I'm a bit short of accessible facilities living in a flat.  Water preservation is also a good thing ecologically too I guess.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2989
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2005, 06:12:28 pm »
All of us experienced window cleaners on here, even if we have WFP, we are still skilled in  trad methods, and all will still have to use trad methods regularly.

WFP gets you off ladders, and it is just another tool in the window cleaners armoury, a pretty major one to be sure though.

Will it stand the test of time as Terry asked?

Well it has been going several years now and is taking off big time.

It's techniques are tried and tested, they work, of that there is no question, so I think it has already stood the test of time There is no going back now and  H & S are certainly not going to relax the regs, they are just going to get tighter!

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2005, 06:21:32 pm »
the real thing here for traditional is to get more money for the job. any job hand done costs more.why are we any different because window cleaner hold back from change as has been said here.
every other trade is puting ladders away on safety grounds finding safer way to work.