[dave f]

told you

[Nathanael Jones]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

[Lee Burbidge]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Ohhhh I think I might stir the hornets nest then in the next issue of WCM, cus we doing a ladders special and I have interviewed a view 100% ladder boys

 

[Lee Burbidge]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Hey Nath, when you say unlawful what do you mean?. Cost may be an issue to some windys to DIY or of the shelf. It costs more than going up the ladder and can be more hassle on the occassions. You can still be insured for using ladders, and ladders are still for sale.
So until a day that ladders are banned, how is one windys choice an unlawful one. At what point does he come before a court of law to defend himself for his crime? 

[H S and Son]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

[Lee Burbidge]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Now that James has used wfp he cant live without either - I get that.
Matt how many ladder guys from the old days on here (in your best estimate/percentage) have just stuck with ladders ?

[H S and Son]

There cant be many Lee, Stan likes to talk about the fact he is still on ladders, Id say less than 5%, on here that is. In reality, thoughout the country probably quite a lot higher than that.

[idealrob]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Very well put & explained, sadly some dont think its a law, and thats a shame for everyone

idealrob

[Nathanael Jones]

Hey Nath, when you say unlawful what do you mean?.

European health & safety law was changed about 6 or 7 years ago and became law in member states soon after (2005 in the UK, 2006 in Ireland if memory serves). The paragraph below is an excerpt from the Irish text, but the UK law is derived from the same European legislation so is probably near word for word identical. The first line says it all really:

(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.

Cost may be an issue to some windys to DIY or of the shelf. It costs more than going up the ladder and can be more hassle on the occassions. You can still be insured for using ladders, and ladders are still for sale.

Cost is indeed a factor that would be considered by H&S officers,.. but if you've been in the window cleaning business for more than a year or 2, can you really say that £350 or so for a very basic backpack setup is beyond your means?

There are many jobs where ladders are the only practicable alternative, painting, fitting sky dishes etc etc, so insurance for ladder work & ladder sales themselves should never be considered justification for every work at height task,.. only those where there is no practicable alternative.

So until a day that ladders are banned, how is one windys choice an unlawful one. At what point does he come before a court of law to defend himself for his crime? 

Unfortunately, every court case I've heard of to date has been directly related to an accident. H&S are tightening up, but I doubt we'll see pre-emptive prosecutions for improper ladder use for a while yet.

I would imagine that insurance companies will be quicker to react than any health & safety authority. Every insurance policy I've ever seen has in the small print that the policy does not provide any cover if you are engaging in unlawful activities,... how long will it be before we see a post on here from someone who's fallen off a ladder, broken a bone & has to take 8 weeks off work, but his personal injury or income protection insurance is refusing to pay out on this technicality?

[james51174]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Now that James has used wfp he cant live without either - I get that.
Matt how many ladder guys from the old days on here (in your best estimate/percentage) have just stuck with ladders ?

yep....been using ladders for 25 years,,,,wfp for two years.....but my dad STILL wont use wfp...even though he see's the benefits of it....he just leaves it to me

[james51174]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

all this is correct....but apart from the law bit...its not law...merely a guideline

BUT

if it went to court....with insurance companies involved....one would have to show clear cut measures taken in order to justify ladder use

[james51174]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

lol....not sure if your joking or not....but ive been using ladders since 1986

[Nathanael Jones]

Actually its not a guideline, it is law.

Here is a link to the Irish legislation:
http://www.avondhucleaning.com/Work%20at%20height%20regs%202007%20Ireland.pdf

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

all this is correct....but apart from the law bit...its not law...merely a guideline

BUT

if it went to court....with insurance companies involved....one would have to show clear cut measures taken in order to justify ladder use

[james51174]

ok...in ireland then

but im still posotive its not in england

i only know this as i just completed my ladder association training course

but what ever way one looks at it...it isnt law to leave ladders as a last resort

i wish it were though

[Lee Burbidge]

Law and no law. 100% trads will use ladders and no one can actually stop them. It's a choice. The law only becomes really important when you start employing staff.

No one is going to arrest 100% trads and HSE are only interested in people injured by ladders when it goes to court. You not going to take yourself to court are you?
I wfp. But some of my mates trad on ladders, that's cool too. They belive as long as the use them right.

[stuart mc]

ahem Nat the following paragraph is from the HSE doc on WAHR 2005

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.

so it is indeed a guide

from this document http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

[H S and Son]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Actually I was being serious mate, but I now see I mis-read your post. My mistake 

lol....not sure if your joking or not....but ive been using ladders since 1986

[james51174]

no worries dude....your point is still very valid....and i completely agree

my life would have been easier with wfp by a country mile!!

[idealrob]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

[stuart mc]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?