[Tom White]

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

This was the rules prior to the WAHD 2005, therefore it's been superceded and is no longer relevant.

I'm not 100% sure, say 80% sure.

WAHD 2005 has got to be the final authority here.

[james51174]

Just been looking on the ladder associatioand i have copied what it says" the Ladder Association, formerly the British Ladder Manufacturers' Association .
So just like ionic are biased towards wfp, these will be biased towards ladders, its obvious.
But look at the prices they are charging

What Will it Cost?

Membership Joining Fee                                          £375.00
 
Annual Membership Fee                                          £375.00
 
Training Centre Registration                                    £3000.00
 
Additional Training Centre Registration (Satellite)      £500.00
 
Annual Training Centre Audit Fee                             £400.00
 
Training Centre Delegate Registration Fee                 £10.00
 
All prices are exclusive of VAT, and subject to change without notice.

And people say wfp is too expensive

And acording to other posts above they do the training that does not seem to comply with the law, eg not securing ladders etc

By the way, what was the written risk assesment training like ?

idealrob
 

i think you will find thats the cost of becoming an instructor?...not sure

i payed around £150

here are the details of the training course...its used by HSS for their ladder and step ladder training

http://www.hsstraining.com/browse-sub-categories/browse-courses/course-details.aspx?courseref=301_LA_Steps

we were sent on the courseby the H&S officer from a construction company we work for

they were given a list of training courses by HSE, and ladder association were one of the companies on the list

also found on FWC website in training courses section

also, the HSE website links directly to the LA website

[Bryan_Dolby]

Hi every body
There are some incorrect messages in this topic
All ladders must be secured (WAHR 2005) either top or bottom
Height is guidance only 6 or 9 meters stated within the industry
There is no Height limit stated within legislation
Any body instructing people on a ladder safety course cannot let anybody go up a ladder with out it been secured
This is why the FWC does a IOSH accredited ladder and WFP health and safety training day to clarify how you can work within the health and safety regulations
My problem is that certain training organisations are putting the incorrect information out to window cleaners
Ladders should never be banned ,they are part of a window cleaners tool kit
Bryan

[james51174]

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

This was the rules prior to the WAHD 2005, therefore it's been superceded and is no longer relevant.

I'm not 100% sure, say 80% sure.

WAHD 2005 has got to be the final authority here.

yes rob pointed that out

i found it on the hse site...but there are other links confirming the above point on the hse site, that do come under the 2005 act

i think i have listed them in one or more of the posts above


you can read it yourself here tosh, if you want ...its taken from the 2005 WAHR page of the HSE website

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

[Bryan_Dolby]

James 51174
Your qoute
i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told  


We all agree the law says you have to secure the ladder at all times
But a instructor that trained you let you go against the law by not securing the ladder

I am sorry it seems your course as not given you the correct information

Bryan

[james51174]

James 51174
Your qoute
i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told  


We all agree the law says you have to secure the ladder at all times
But a instructor that trained you let you go against the law by not securing the ladder

I am sorry it seems your course as not given you the correct information

Bryan

i get what your trying to tell be bryan, but im going by the HSE website here

the page listing "what do i need to do to comply to the WAHR 2005"

which is found here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

the section headed "do i need to tie a ladder?" quotes (and please note the HSE recomendation to go to the ladder association website...which includes a link directly to their site) this.....
Do I have to tie my ladder?

 
Ladders have to be prevented from slipping during use.  The options for securing a ladder are as follows:
-tie the ladder to a suitable point making sure both stiles are tied;
-where this is not practicable, use a ladder stability device;
-if this is not possible then securely wedge the ladder e.g. against a wall;
-if none of the above are possible then foot the ladder.  Footing is the last resort and should be avoided where possible by the use of other methods.

For more information on ladder safety see: Safe Use of ladders and stepladders , or go to the Ladder Association website .




..you see, i have never disputed that the ladder should be secure....but from this information above (and you must understand, considering its the HSE website) i can only say that i will continue to believe that tieing a ladder is not my only option...
 

[stuart mc]

james thanks for that link clarifying that, it now has become clear to me

[james51174]

Are ladders banned?
 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.

Exactly my point. I've no problem seeing ladders used properly, and where there is no alternative,... but very few 100% trad cleaners could even dream of meeting the criteria above.

As for "Low risk & short duration",... it might only take 60 seconds to clean a window, but if you go up the ladders 100 times a day then can it really still be called short duration?

well im going by the WAHR 2005 document found here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf


which confirms it is a guide in this paragraph

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.


 

[james51174]

Hi every body
There are some incorrect messages in this topic
All ladders must be secured (WAHR 2005) either top or bottom
Height is guidance only 6 or 9 meters stated within the industry
There is no Height limit stated within legislation
Any body instructing people on a ladder safety course cannot let anybody go up a ladder with out it been secured
This is why the FWC does a IOSH accredited ladder and WFP health and safety training day to clarify how you can work within the health and safety regulations
My problem is that certain training organisations are putting the incorrect information out to window cleaners
Ladders should never be banned ,they are part of a window cleaners tool kit
Bryan

here is the course that the ladder association provide if it helps?

http://www.hsstraining.com/browse-sub-categories/browse-courses/course-details.aspx?courseref=301_LA_Steps

also the fedaeration of window cleaners (who i believe you are high up in?) lists them on there website for training courses...i guess then that they are recomended by you guys?

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/links.htm

when i was given there details i did check up on them....and that included looking on your site

[Bryan_Dolby]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR 
Bryan

[stuart mc]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR 
Bryan

what is a micro light? I tried google but just got flying lessons

[Bryan_Dolby]

James

Not as high as you think just retired,doing my last few months

Bryan

[james51174]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR  
Bryan

thing is Bryan...i feel that the majority here think im being a know it all

now there seems to be two issues people are having with me here, the first being the organisation i used to carry out my training

firstly....I am only seeking the truth myself

In doing this I underwent a training course by an organisation, linked to and recomended by HSE, recomended by FWC, and sponsored by HSS tool & equipment hire

more info here

http://www.cleaning43.com/latest-news/latest-news-article.php?latestNewsID=712

this would seem a very credible organisation would it not?

so when i undertook my practical session...and after a mental assesment of the risk, decided it ok to safely use a ladder without securing or footing...i could only be under the impression that i have done it correctly, and in line with HSE ....ater all, they helped supply us with the ladder association website

The other issue is the subject of law

Now i have gone to great lengths to search out HSE WAHR 2005 information

i said that a ladder doesnt HAVE to be secured by law

i provided up to date info to back this up, stating other correct methods available...which includes footing...which to me isnt under the ubrella of the word 'securing'

maybe my use of the english language is different to some others...maybe i failed to ask rob to define the word 'secure'

i also said that a ladder doesnt HAVE to be the last resort for WAH....i never said it shouldnt be...or that i dont use this protocol myself

i also backed this up with a link and a quote from a WAHR 2005 document, which clearly states its only a guide...but is recomended

so both issues(securing by law, and ladder being a last option by law), no matter what way round you look at it are answered by the statement

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.

i dont know what else to say really, its written in black and white (maybe grey is a more suitable colour lol)

But im met with such fierce posting by people on here

after all....all im trying to do is work out the grey area that we are all suffering to try and understand

im not attacking anyone

im not making fun or acting like i know best

all ive done is show the relevant info both shown to me, and that of which i have resesrched myself

so why all this anymosity from so many here?

[james51174]

James

Not as high as you think just retired,doing my last few months

Bryan

now i am jealous of you

all the best for the future...and from what i read....well done in all you have acheived at FWC

[james51174]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR  
Bryan

what is a micro light? I tried google but just got flying lessons

is it the orange rubber covers that go over the end of the styles?

not sure myself

we have a ladder mate for the bottom

but all our ladders are pointers ar the top with a rubber end (you know the type).....never had one move (at the top) more than half an inch in my whole carreer

[stuart mc]

james don't worry mate, I have read this all and you have clarified a few things for me, I am going to have to re think a few jobs, mainly internal ladder work, but seeing both sides has made me wiser and shown that I was slightly wrong in my knowledge.

[james51174]

thank you stuart...the way you have taken my posts is the way i intended everyone to

[G Griffin]

A Microlite is a type of ladder stand-off, isn't it?

[james51174]

dunno...but if it is we have a few of them too...but admittedly i only use it for doing conservatory roofs

[james51174]

found it...your right...its not the type we have though

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/acatalog/Basic_Products.html

not sure if it is any safer than the pointed top ladders we use though....seems to do the same job tbh