[Nathanael Jones]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

[stuart mc]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

exactly Nat, and I was prepared by sending the lad on relevant courses, but why are the council not putting up scaffold up to varnish windows, and not securing ladders when they don't?

I think it is because, it is not cost effective but according to everyone that should not come into it.

I don't disagree with you but the whole topic is just a nightmare to make any sense

[GB Window Cleaning]

ladders still have there place, like over an extension roof where wfp cannor get too

[Lee Burbidge]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

exactly Nat, and I was prepared by sending the lad on relevant courses, but why are the council not putting up scaffold up to varnish windows, and not securing ladders when they don't?

I think it is because, it is not cost effective but according to everyone that should not come into it.

I don't disagree with you but the whole topic is just a nightmare to make any sense

I think I have made the point by starting this topic. Read the truth about ladders in my ladder special of the Window Cleaning Magazine WCM - myths blown out the water.  

www.windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk its free!!

[james51174]

cant find it in the magazine lee?

[Lee Burbidge]

cant find it in the magazine lee?

oops sorry James - its in the new issue Jan 12.

[james51174]

thanks lee, i look forward to it

as i understood it, alot of the reasons for ladders being used as a last resort are ...

because of the work involved requires the user to be working at height for a prolonged period of time

during the ladder association course i attended, cleaning a window is well within the recomended time limmit required, provided the ladder is being used correctly

the trainer confirmed to us all that although the guide is to use ladders as a last resort, its not a legal requirement

and i must repost the HSE paragraph mentioned elsewhere in this thread....

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.  

[Lee Burbidge]

Crooks of the matter is - you are allowed to use ladders for cleaning domestic 1st floor properties, its not illegal and you dont have to buy wfp systems.

If you employ people then from a self protection point of view you will have a legal obligation to seek the safest way of cleaning windows to protect your staff from injury and death and to protect your business from a HSE prosecution.

Simples.

[james51174]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

[Lee Burbidge]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

Hi James, you may have a duty to your sub contractors. You may have to insist that they find the safest way to clean windows. If other people are involved in your window cleaning then there is a trial to you should things go wrong.

[Lee Burbidge]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

Hi James, you may have a duty to your sub contractors. You may have to insist that they find the safest way to clean windows. If other people are involved in your window cleaning then there is a trial to you should things go wrong.

Trained to check ladders is a good start for protecting yourself. Remeber dont skimp on the paperwork for this 

[james51174]

TBH they all have their own rounds and 9 times of 10 use their own equipment on our work

they only use our equipment if working with us...and then as stated, i choose wfp first, unless its not a suitable job...and then they are using our checked and passed ladders

we also paid for them to go on the ladder assosiation courses with us...so all bases are covered

http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/blma-training.jsp

[Window Washers]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

[Lee Burbidge]

TBH they all have their own rounds and 9 times of 10 use their own equipment on our work

they only use our equipment if working with us...and then as stated, i choose wfp first, unless its not a suitable job...and then they are using our checked and passed ladders

we also paid for them to go on the ladder assosiation courses with us...so all bases are covered

http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/blma-training.jsp

Good man!   

[Lee Burbidge]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

Im afraid I dont agree with that. WFP or ladders is cool if you work for yourself as discussed in the above posts. My friends use ladders but are still serious about there business and they have been cleaning for the pass 7 years.
Its a choice. I agree that those that have not used wfp might be afraid of change. But my mate has used wfp and still prefers his ladders.

[james51174]

 Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error,

i use both

and tbh over four decades of work, you would agree that a massively varied amount of work can be built up

there are jobs that just dont suit wfp

some types of dirty windows suit traditional methods

there are windows that just dont come up

there are customers who just dont want it (works both ways this line of thought as well)

i do straight forward upvc type jobs that dont like wfp...the windows spot etc....this isnt operator error on our part

we have a subbie thats used wfp for nearly ten years now and he still finds it on occasion inconsistent...to the point of two exact same jobs next to each other....one comes up...one doesnt

its a shame, as i am pro wfp....but in a few cases it doesnt cut the mustard

[Window Washers]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

Im afraid I dont agree with that. WFP or ladders is cool if you work for yourself as discussed in the above posts. My friends use ladders but are still serious about there business and they have been cleaning for the pass 7 years.
Its a choice. I agree that those that have not used wfp might be afraid of change. But my mate has used wfp and still prefers his ladders.

the reason they prefer ladders as they could not deal with the change over from waterfed pole Lee, it is a ballache I know I did this years ago as was 100% trad, I know trad guys still today, each to there own and all that but without doubt you can earn more than wfp simple as, I think no different of a trad window cleaner or a wfp, although I do find it odd you would make life hard for yourself and make less money but that's what makes life exciting I guess.

[james51174]

hmmm

i have a number of jobs i would never use wfp on, completely down to the fact that they are priced very well....and if i halved the time i took on the job by using the pole...i would lose the job

also 90% of our work is 12-14 weeks....it takes far longer in my experience with the pole, than the 4 week jobs tbh...its still quicker than traditional.....but not leaps and bounds...due to the time needed to rinse and prevent spots etc

but on the whole...i agree, on a job that suites wfp...its better in every way...esp if the customer is out and you can fly round

[idealrob]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

1: ladders are not banned, and council want to help safe ladder use, so a person trained on a ladder is usually safer than one not trained
2: the safe use of ladders for window cleaners is an old document when ladders were the norm
3: yes the law says ladders must be secured, but hse have not clarified what securing is,

Yes ladders have their uses, as well as wfp or trad poles, but the most important thing is the law, yes law agian, not a guidline says that if a ladder is to be used it has to be secured, and a full written  risk assesment has to be done, but lets face it , 9o% of the time it doesnt happen, but because other dont do it, does not make it right.

idealrob

[james51174]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles