[L.J.Thorpe]

i work in south lincs
lots of talk on here about undercutting in my area
the company under suspicion is called safeclean or cleansafe not sure whichbut they are ping off other windies in this area for their alleged "jobs at any price" approach to the business
i have no agenda
i have a large and established round
i am not worried by competition
however!!!
i would like the willis chaps to come on and  confirm their position
they make a good screw off their city and guilds courses (or whatever they are called now) but at the same time they are alleged to be targeting the work of the people they sign up!!!
what is their view on this matter???
ps if this gets locked i want to know why
being admin should not give power to remove stuff you dont like

[L.J.Thorpe]

feel free to comment
you know you want to
 

[wpclean]

If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here ! 

[CLEANCARE WC]

If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here ! 

thats not what he said. but there is a good chance windys from their area have been on their course and might also have lost work to them

[Paul Coleman]

If I may ask where do you get this information from ,because if it is true about them gaining from personal information on the said courses it would effect lots of unsuspecting members on here !  

I can't see there being a direct link.  No-one who ran the course ever asked for any customer details.
It sounds like they are using a business tactic that has been around a lot longer than anyone on this forum.  Big businesses have been using it for many years.  The problem is that with window cleaning, most businesses are small one man operations so it's easier to take it personally.
However, pushing prices down generally could have a knock on effect of pushing someone to work harder and faster to sustain their income.  This could feed through into poorer safety management - ironic due to much of the NVQ2 course that they taught being about H & S.  However, no-one is forcing that on anyone.
AFAICR, only one family member was doing window cleaning at the time - though that may have changed.
Also, I have seen this forum used before to rumour monger so I take much of it with a pinch of salt.
The person concerned would probably do themself a service if he were to come on here and discuss it but remembering the reception he got when he first posted offering (mostly) free NVQs, I can hardly blame him.

[windiewasher]

 They have 15 vans on the road.more soon.

[L.J.Thorpe]

just to clarify i am not saying they get info from the window cleaners and then target their work simply that they get govt.funding to run these courses and that some of those on the course have also had their work canvassed and taken by their cleaning "arm"
i dont know if these stories of deliberate undercutting are true
that is why i think the position of this company should be made clear
fair enough really dont you think??

[andyM]

They have 15 vans on the road.more soon.

Have they got valid Insurance?
 http://www.cleansafewindowcleaning.com/pdf/Clean%20Safe%20Insurance.pdf

[Neil Gornall]

I am in the middle of the QCF course (formally NVQ) being run by Andrew Willis, I was approached and offered the place with a phone call a few months back. Up to that point I had never heard of Impact 43 or Cleansafe.
And for the record it’s a good course.
Whilst on the course I have not been asked directly for information on my customer base. Although we are asked to provide certain stuff which could be used to gather information but I think it’s a lot of trouble to go to for what would be just a few leads.
Since I started the course cleansafe have targeted Spalding very aggressively which is fair enough, I don’t have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with how they canvass.
I have had about 10 customers contact me directly saying they had been canvassed. Most said they were asked if they had a window cleaner already and if so would they like to pay less.
This is not something that has been done before in this area as generally we have an unwritten rule that we all work to a similar price structure and we NEVER deliberately undercut one another. By doing this we have all had a decent living and been able to keep prices steadily increasing over the last 10 years or so keeping up with our running costs.
For one firm to move in, and in a couple of months bring prices back down to where they were in 2003 when I first started is to say the least annoying. But as some have said on here “that’s business” If this company wants to earn less than the rest of us that’s up to them.
Will I complete the course? I don’t know, as I have another unwritten rule. I don’t ever do business with someone unless I have trust in them.  
A large part of what Andrew Willis teaches is for a company to present an image that customers can trust.
One of the comments a customer said to me was “they were cheaper than you but I don’t trust someone who has to play dirty to get work” enough said I think.

[L.J.Thorpe]

spot on neil
though i found the course had little relevance to me as i am mostly residential and the few commercial jobs i do are simply larger versions of regular domestic work,not much call for cradles and bosuns chairs round here!!
i like the fact that we all know each other and help each other out,it makes life a lot easier

[windiewasher]

Looks like they are after everyones work and everybody is lining there pockets so they can canvass all your work.
 If that's true that they are undercutting that way.I hope they get what the
y  deserve.
I know if I found out that they were doing that to my customers I would certainly be having a chat with them.
Ring them,up.

[trevor perry]

i dont know whether these allegations are true or not may be you yourself could be a bit too expensive as the prices qouted on cleansafes website look reasonable enough but the only people who win in a price war is the customer, why not speak to mr willis about his canvassing methods he may be unaware this is happening, if this fails then personally i would fight fire with fire and would get a few of the effected window cleaners together to target all his work at ridiculously low prices, with fifteen vans to run it wouldnt take long to put him out of business. This would be a last resort as i said earlier the only people to benefit would be the customer

[Sean Dyer]

i dont know whether these allegations are true or not may be you yourself could be a bit too expensive as the prices qouted on cleansafes website look reasonable enough but the only people who win in a price war is the customer, why not speak to mr willis about his canvassing methods he may be unaware this is happening, if this fails then personally i would fight fire with fire and would get a few of the effected window cleaners together to target all his work at ridiculously low prices, with fifteen vans to run it wouldnt take long to put him out of business. This would be a last resort as i said earlier the only people to benefit would be the customer

I doubt very much there are 15 vans on the road

They have not been going that long

Also i dont think they are trying tp build a business out of underpriced work they would surely know its not worth while

I know a few on here have cleansafe listed in profile as there website yet they seem to talk like they are self employed so perhaps its a franchise and there are some rogue franchisees

Id ring em if you were worried, whenever ive had dealings with the wilis' they've been sound

[Micky Boy]

I would like the Willis chaps to come on and confirm their position

Hi, Michael Willis from CSWC here.

This may be an opportunity to answer or clarify the connection between Clean Safe Window Cleaning (CSWC) and Impact43.

CSWC is a family business
I own a 25% stake in the venture and the remaining 75% is owned by IMPACT43
IMPACT43 is a (Partnership) including Andrew Willis, Dina Willis, David Willis and other members of the family. (I have no part in IMPACT43)   

IMPACT43 is a leading supplier of window cleaning industry related training courses and runs as part of this the City and Guilds QCF Level 2 Qualification.

Andrew and David have limited work related roles in Clean Safe (CSWC)
There activity mainly has been involved within the setting up of the company including, company branding including logo, website etc, and company documents, i.e. risk assessments etc and training.
The day to day operations, sales/canvassing and management of the company is run by myself.

I have discussed the post on Clean It up in a meeting with all parties today

Andrew has explained and has been completely open about his and IMPACT’s investment in the other family business Clean Safe with those attending on the recent Boston, Lincoln and Grimsby QCF groups.

Undercutting or pricing competitively:
CSWC are actively canvassing and marketing key areas in Lincolnshire including, Boston, Spilsby, Stickney, Skegness, Bourne, Peterborough, Long Sutton, etc.
CSWC are based in Boston Lincolnshire and aim to market and grow in Lincolnshire.   
We carry out direct canvassing
As part of this we ask if the house owner has a current window cleaner and are they currently happy with the service
Canvassing will include what we deliver as part of our service and that we would like to provide them with a quotation.
CSWC will be re-investing in the business over the next five years with corporate offices and a separate window cleaning industrial unit,
This includes new vans and equipment (just for the record CSWC has two vans and a smart car) .........not sure where 15 vans have come from
CSWC will have an exceptional training programme provided by IMPACT43

Under cutting
CSWC have no intention to undercut other cleaners but to look for opportunities to be able to deliver a quality service at a competitive and fair price.
Competition is a healthy part of any business; it stops companies becoming complacent, and always will have a positive effect in others raising their game.   

Re: removal of posts
CSWC have had a recent post put on the forum by a forum user that was un-professional, incorrect and clearly libellous in content and we asked for this to be removed.
We welcome fair and valid comments
However if forum users want to hide behind posts
Or make untrue libellous comments we will on all accounts take legal action, if those comments are damaging to CSWC.

I can advise that CSWC will take legal action on any forum user that posts comments that are untrue 

Have they got valid Insurance? CSWC
Yes CSWC has updated it insurance page

I hope this answers some of the comments previously made and to be honest I haven't got the time to be constantly answering more comments to come. If anyone has any further issues or comments to make then please feel free to call our offices on 01205 354131 and I will speak with you directly.

Many thanks,

Michael Willis

[david willis]

I think Michael has covered the facts regarding the involvement that Andrew and I have within Clean Safe Window Cleaning.

Our company IMPACT43 provide the City and Guilds QCF with integrity and in the strictest of confidence with all companies and candidates attending.
We have strict codes of practice and policies to follow which in particular involve data protection, for this reason we have a contract with a company called Shred It, all confidential information is shredded by them.

We do not and would certainly not use any information received by a learner for the benefit of our or any other organisation.
 
We are independently audited by South Thames College and Andrew has over 35 years in the industry believe me he would not do anything to damage the IMPACT43 reputation.

RE posts concerning IMPACT43

In the avoidance of doubt

We will take legal action from today on any forum users that leave posts that have content which is untrue, libellous, slander

We will include the forum owners as far as they disclose the identity of undisclosed forum users pending court action.

Please note
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]

Please ensure your comments are true and valid .

Any further question or comments can be made to David Willis of Impact43, please call me on 01205 364333 or 07984365917. 

[Perfect Windows]

Crikey, there are a couple of real inducements to open debate on the forum.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Crikey, there are a couple of real inducements to open debate on the forum.

Vin

By the way, that's clearly untrue, so do you think I'll be sued?

Vin

[wpclean]

I believe there is a real conflict of interests here so I would say buyer beware !

[Frankybadboy]

funny that this post has all gone queit

[wpclean]

funny that this post has all gone queit

LOL