[edward1]

 one of my guys was cleaning windows on a first floor  garden area yesterday .
 there are 2 skylights on this area.

one had a metal grill/cover  the other had been removed for repairs and not replaced.
my guy steped back while washing a window onto this skylight and it collapsed .he fell through this into a childs nursery toilet area .luckily no kids were in the loo .or they certainaly would have been killed.
as it is ,my guy has ended up with a broke foot.so got off relativly lightly.

what happens now i dont know.the managers of this site told me that the grill has been off for a few months implying that we should have been aware.my guy was very lucky ,but this place is an old peoples home and the outcome then would have been very different.

we also do around 100k a year of work for these people ,which is a few peoples jobs.
this is a tough time.

be carefull out there and look where you are going .
a very busy day today

[the bfg]

your man was indeed very lucky as you say it could have ended much worse mate.

its also tricky as what action to take legally as if you claimed then they could counter claim saying you should have pointed the hazzard out when you did your health and safety check,  I'm not saying they would say that but its possible.

also the fact you do a large amount of work for them could place you in an awkward position.

as I say mate its a tricky one,  hope your guy is up and about soon and able to go out and work again.


Steve

[Pope vader]

i take it u have a  health and safety person at your place?  what did they say,  did the lad point out that the grill was off,   could he have voided steeping on to it,

cover you own backside, report the accident at least in your accident report book,  as if the lad sues  and he is entitled to,

get pictures of the work area,  who is paying for the damage,   but speak to some one proffessional,   as i tmight end up costing you a fortune

[colin purewater]

i take it u have a  health and safety person at your place?  what did they say,  did the lad point out that the grill was off,   could he have voided steeping on to it,

cover you own backside, report the accident at least in your accident report book,  as if the lad sues  and he is entitled to,

get pictures of the work area,  who is paying for the damage,   but speak to some one proffessional,   as i tmight end up costing you a fortune

wise words!!!

hope the ladds ok very lucky he aint dead

i was looking out for your pics of new pole last night, now i can see why you aint put them on    hate them bad days at work....

[Small but perfectley formed]

Hope you reported to HSE , get ready for a claim 

[idealrob]

I am sorry to say, the accident will have to be reported to RIDDOR, as it a broken foot, some breaks do not have to be reported, but this will, and they will then launch a major investigation of yours and the building owners safe  practices, control of H & S etc. Was the area properly barriered off etc. The will probably fine you anyway, and they could be a fine for the building owners also. Its going to mountains of paperwork, and a large headache for you. We offer employees a bonus each month for zero accidents, it definatly works, and saves us a massive  in the long run.
Sorry to report it so frightening, but just preparing you for whats instore, buts it the law

idealrob

[idealrob]

http://www.compliancegroup.co.uk/hs_news_apr09.html
 

RIDDOR reports should be submitted online at: http://www.riddor.gov.uk The Incident Centre will allocate a unique reference number and normally confirm receipt of the report by post within a week. The accident details are then passed on to the relevant Enforcing Authority (i.e. the HSE or the Local Council) and they will decide whether or not to investigate further - it depends on the seriousness of the accident, previous reports, their available resources etc. Submitting a RIDDOR report does increase the likelihood of a Health & Safety Inspector visiting site but failure to make a report when required is a criminal offence which can be punished by a £5,000 fine. So it is better to have a visit than a fine! RIDDOR Reportable Incidents Below is a summary of the types of incident which must be reported. Deaths: (must be reported immediately by phone: Tel. 0845 3009923) Major injuries: (examples include) Loss of sight (temporary of permanent) Chemical or hot metal burn to the eye or any penetrating eye injury. Amputations Dislocations (except for fingers and toes) Fractures (except for fingers and toes) Any other injuries causing unconsciousness, requiring resuscitation or resulting in hospitalisation for over 24 hours. Over 3 day Injury: Any accident which prevents a person from working or carrying out their normal work tasks for more than 3 days. When counting it is 3 calendar days (not 3 working days) so weekends, rest days, holidays etc are included. The day the injury occurred is not counted though. Hospitalisation for 24 hrs: Any incident which results in a person being detained in hospital for over 24 hours. Specified diseases: (e.g. poisoning, occupational cancers, dermatitis etc) Specified dangerous occurrences: (e.g. collapse of lifting equipment, explosions, gas leaks etc) The most common reason for submitting a RIDDOR report is the “Over 3 day injury” rule and managers must be aware of this following any accident related absence.

[Matthew JN]

Risk Assesment

[edward1]

thx for all replys especially idealrob

turns out he has a fracture metatarsal (toe)
this appears to be a non major incident and a 3 day incident .
i have sent off the report online and await a reply.
the accident was followed up by the sites h&s officer and they are awaiting a statement from my collegue.
i took pics my self at the site which clearly shows the missing grill.

as far as a ra .i did a ra on site when i tendered the job .and we have been doing this job for around 10 yrs but tender each yre.my collegue works for me as a sub contractor and is only with me on this job.

[bobby p]

I am sorry to say, the accident will have to be reported to RIDDOR, as it a broken foot, some breaks do not have to be reported, but this will, and they will then launch a major investigation of yours and the building owners safe  practices, control of H & S etc. Was the area properly barriered off etc. The will probably fine you anyway, and they could be a fine for the building owners also. Its going to mountains of paperwork, and a large headache for you. We offer employees a bonus each month for zero accidents, it definatly works, and saves us a massive  in the long run.
Sorry to report it so frightening, but just preparing you for whats instore, buts it the law

idealrob

how does your accident bonus scheme work? surely an accident is a chance happening. what risk taking practice do your workers stop doing by having the bonus in mind ?

[idealrob]

They dont report them, we offer a cash amount, used to use vouchers, but find cash works best, an example was one staff member was cleaning an caught arm on a radiator , and suffered a minor burn, not anyway near to go to hospital, but did not report to me, and possible result in a claim in later years, so save me on insurance premium, and saves me time and money on claims, thats good business practice imo
Most of our work is on large chemical sites on Teesside, where  a good accident record means you keep contracts, we have been there on site for 50 years. The site motto is all accidents are preventable. Its down to good training, changing the culture of staff, full job method statments, risk assesment and common sense, and the monthly bonus, for accident free working. We are in awhere theres blame, theres a claim culture, fortunatly for us, we are claim free for 30 years

idealrob

[edward1]

what about as in this instance the accident is due to the building owner and not yourself or your worker.
surely the claim should be on thier insurance?

[paul saunders]

They dont report them, we offer a cash amount, used to use vouchers, but find cash works best,

idealrob

So you bribe them not to report an accident. 

[idealrob]

Call it what you want, the system works for us, and its about saving accidents and being safe, got any better ideas ?
If something happened like the incident in this post, they would report it, but it will never happen, not because of the monthly bonus, but because we have safe systems of working, have a H & S officer work for us, and we only clean safe buildings. Yes we did have an incident where someone opened a window, it fell out from height and hit our window cleaner on the head, fortunatly he was wearing a hard hat, one which we bought with a extra short peak, for looking up whilst using a pole, thats because we take safety seriously, and yes we paid the bonus that month because it was not the w/c fault, and guess what he did not put in a claim, it works, and we have about 18 employees, all full time

idealrob

[paul saunders]

is what you're doing legal, paying someone for not having an accident is not the same as paying someone for not reporting an accident.
At the end of the day it's your company and you run it how you like, all I am saying is that if what you are doing is not legal, then saying it on a forum is not the thing to do.

[idealrob]

It is 100% legal, we are rewarding them for being carefull, as for saying it on this forum, i dont see the problem, I have nothing to be ashamed of, ICI, Dupont, Huntsman all do the same, massive billion pound companies, and in local papers every month publising the fact. But other post about keeping paypal money, which is tax evasion, using ladders unsecured, and no risk assesments, now that is illegal, this post, and the lad breaking his foot, thats tragic, but you moan about bonus payments, some people cant see the wood for the trees. We are proud of our familly business, yes its a business, that has been going for 55 years, and our fantastic accident record. I someone breaks a leg or injures themselves, the report it, but as for a minor cut to a finger, where we do not need to go to hospital, they usually put a plaster on it and carry on and learn from their mistake, sadly others think this is a crime. Sadly they need to get real, and face upto the real crimes on this forum, the lack of obeying the true laws with regard to health & safety that are british laws, that i would say 90% dont take any notice of. Going for over 50 years, though the 3 day weeks, the Thatcher goverments, countless recession, the demise of local business, eg ICI & British Steel on Teesside, we must be doing something right.
Whats your view on the accident in this post Paul Saunders, and what would you have done to prevent it ? And how to stop it happening ?

idealrob

[zeusweiler]

What about instances where an injury has occurred and only later it is apparent that there has been a development of complications they will claim against you and use the fact that they are bribed not to report it in the first place you have already payed out the bonus do you not get up to 3 years from the date of incident to make a claim maybe I'm wrong on this but it seems like you are paying out a bonus for piece of mind you don't get in return. How does this bonus work in relation to tax is it legal and taxable I'm not to savvy in this area would just like to know how this works thanks

[idealrob]

It is 100% legal, as for tax, it is a cash gift, our accountant sorts it out and never had an issue, or with HMRS or VAT. Yes, you are right with the 3 years, but just ask the question, how many accidents occur, the way this forum replies, you would think it was happening everyday.As said again, good risk assesments, job method statements, and go PPE, and training. We are rewarding safety, not covering up, we are a business, and we think it makes good business sense, and saves us time money, and peoples health.
As usual, more questions about technical issues regarding bribary, tax evasion than the broken foot.
If an employee did break their foot, do you think they would not report it for a small monthly sum, or do you think they would get more in a claim. Its a small some of money, put into a monthly draw, its not the Euro lottery.
But most important thing is we are not, repeat not covering up, we are looking after our staff, because we value safety more than anything, 50 years working on Chemical sites as a business, taught us that. We have one lad who has worked for us over 50 years, from school to retirement, and still does the odd day if needed. My uncle who employed over 3000 staff, had to give one employee a bonus for not crashing the van, after many crashes, the bonus worked, now if he had a car crash do you think he would not report it for the sake of a small monthly bonus,
I dont want to keep on answering question about legality of bonus, i have given my oponion, HMRS have no issue, our blue chip accountants have no problem, and i dont, i only have problem with bad employyes, not looking after the safety of their staff, but there are more comments on tax avoidence, than the real issue here.

idealrob

[zeusweiler]

There was from what I see only one comment in relation to tax this was just to clear things up for my own future reference I was in no way accusing you of tax evasion I just wasn't sure how it worked my main point was what would happen if for example a small cut turns into an infection that has caused complications later however the employee chooses to ignore it due to there bonus ends up with an amputated hand or something then choose to make a claim but there's no reference in any accident books etc. What would be the outcome not the best example granted but you see where I'm going. I know that a major incident or accident would be reported just pointing out that something minor could develop. I don't think the forum is being negative at all and am not trying to come across that  way would just like clarification for my own future reference after all it was you that openly posted your practices on an open forum     

[idealrob]

no offence taken, as for the small cut turning into a amputation is taking it a bit far, but it could happen, but imagine it happended at home, you would probably put some savlon or germalene on it, and that would be the end of it, but if it did not work go to the doctors, or hospital, hope you dont get mrsa etc, and 99.9% it will be ok. I was not talking about tax evasion, just that i guy breaks his foot, a near death could have taken place with the window falling, but there is more concern about legal issues, the tax issues, and not, imo the important issues, safety

idealrob