[matt]

my point was, ionics will throw money at any venture to make it a success, good on them though, you got to take risks to get somewhere (or so they say )

[Newwfpgatherer]

Mike,  I think you killed the thread.

Errr, yes it does seem to have lost some of it's momentum doesn't it.

Maybe there's no-one out there with a valid argument as to why it is better to start something entirely new rather than work something out with the organisation you already have.

Or maybe people aren't really that bothered by it after all.

Philip's gone very quiet too........I am keen to find out why he doesn't appear to be on the comittee of this new organisation.

Any ideas?

Regards

Mike

Rock band The Who had a good song years ago which still is very popular, titled;
Won't Get Fooled Again! 
Probably thats why majority don't comment.  Don't expect much then you don't get disappointed.  All these Associations can get lost in the politics.  I'm not saying this one will, I'm just saying, that, may be why not much reaction.  Still what do I know, I'm just a windowcleaner.
If I remember correctly, the last line of the song by The Who was: "Meet the new Boss.....Same as the old Boss!  We don't get fooled again!"

Pj

[24-7 S C Services]

HI Everyone,

This is the last post I am doing on subjects like this. As everyone is probably aware, I am currently on the steering committee for the PWCA. However, what I am about to post has nothing to do with the PWCA and is my own personal view. In addition, the reason I will not comment on anymore posts about the PWCA or the NFMWGC is I am to busy trying to organize things my end, to help shape the PWCA into an association that will take all windows cleaners into the future and listen to what its members want.

There have been a few comments raised, if I refer to Mikes comment ‘Maybe there's no-one out there with a valid argument as to why it is better to start something entirely new rather than work something out with the organisation you already have’.

The NFMWGC was invited to the meeting, but failed to send any representative of its board. The only representation that was there for the NFMWGC, where a couple of window cleaners who where fed up with it.

The topic was raised to form a pressure group, this was declined by the majority. Craig (and this will surprise you all) really pushed for a pressure group, gave really valid and good reasons why we should form a pressure group, but again the majority voted against it.

I believe the NFMWGC could change and move forward into the future, however, I also believe the only way this will happen, is 1) For the board to step down and this includes all board members (senior ones as well) and let the members vote in a new board and 2) Another Federation or Association to be out there (like the PWCA) which will motivate the new members to change its way and become competitive in representing window cleaners.

Unfortunately too many people have received nothing from their membership with the NFMWGC. Due to this, I doubt even if the board was replaced, would they ever have the membership they once had.

  I would like to remind people this is my personal view and in addition, I am not attacking the NFMWGC in any way shape or form. I am sure they or more than aware they have problems and hopefully this will soon be sorted out and then hopefully window cleaners can take the option they want as to who represents them.
Andrew

[Philip Hanson]

ello ello,

I'm here Mike, and I'll give you my viewpoint (for what it's worth)

Why start something new instead of working with the current Federation?

This is a very important question, and I can fully understand why Mike has raised it. Also,I believe it was given enough consideration at the meeting.

From an outside viewpoint, it would certainly seem to be the logical thing to do, and a year ago I would definately have thought so.  After all, the federation has cash in the bank (but just don't ask to see any records of it... ahem) it has existing members and it is already well established.  Surely, if we're really not happy with what its doing, then it would be simpler to change the leadership and restructure it that way, right?

Wrong, in my humble opinion.

It sounds like a good idea, and the Federation's own rules permit changing the committee by voting (eg at the AGM)

The problem here is this: Let's say for the sake of argument, a group of 40 people who were members of the Federation got together and went to the AGM with the proposal that the committee should resign and new elections should be held.

Let's say that the proposal was tabled, and a vote went on.  Because of the 40 people of this "pressure group" the vote was carried.

Now, according to the rules, the old committee now has to stand down.  Would that happen?  Ha! you must be joking.

It would be nice to think that the existing committee would obey its own rules, but in my opinion it would not happen.  The existing committee would find some way to either avoid the proposal being tabled, or to simply ignore the result. 

My guess is they would probably say that the whole thing had been orchestrated with the intention of harming the Federation, and all those involved are to have their membership revoked.  This being the case, the vote and the proposal are invalid and can be ignored.

The point is, nobody regulates Federations, there is no mechanism to prevent it from pulling a stunt like that at all.  You can't take legal action.  The only thing that could possibly stop them is the fact that it might be publicly damaging- but as we've seen the Fed couldn't care less about that.  In some ways, I would like to see this happen, just to prove the point, but even then I think that would not convince some people.  They'd accuse the pressure group of trying to 'seize control' maliciously.

I'm afraid I believe that the Federation cannot move forward until certain key people are removed from the committee, and that will never happen, ever.  They aren't going to be removed by a vote at the AGM, they aren't going to stand down voluntarily.  I'm afraid the Fed is stuck with them, and aside a minority of forward thinkers on the board, the other seem to be 'yes-men' to these ones, which will give them a permanent majority in any committee vote.  I have to admire just how tightly locked down these ones have managed to make it, one of them even holds two positions on the committee - meaning that even if he was (however unlikely) voted out of one position, he would still be on the executive board in the other.

I'm no pessimist, anyone who knows me will tell you that.  But I'm afraid we simply have to face the facts.  The fed is at present structured in such a way that it cannot change, and that is a shame.  But I don't think we should let that fact prevent the industry from having a decent trade association, and the only alternative(however difficult) is to start something new.

Regarding the committee of the new organization:

I was asked to be on the new committee, but I declined because I thought it would leave the new association open to accusations of there being a conflict of interest.  I run the magazine, and I'll be happy to promote this new association in it.

Also, I believe that the positions available have so far been filled by people who are more qualified to the job than I am.(EG Frazer Venters)

I think the communication following the meeting, well it could have been better.  More information needs to freely flow in the future, and I hope the interim committee take that on board.  I think some of the negative comments have been purely a result of a communication problem, and that's understandable.  I'm a bit sad about that, because those actually at the meeting were (as I am) very encouraged by it, and genuinely think it was a positive move forward.

My advice now would be: reserve judgement until there is actually a product on offer.  When the PWCA sets its stall out, then will be the time to decide if it is worth it's salt or not.  I think it will be, but there's no denying there's a huge amount of work to do!

-Philip 

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Philip

As ever you put forward a very good and reasoned argument but I just can't agree with it this time.

My real issue is that I believe the benefits of at least attempting to remove the obstructive committee members everyone refers to (and let's make it clear that the majority of people would agree that there also some very good people involved in the Federation) are so considerable that it ought to at least be tried.

Given all the recent bad PR and the appaling way they handled your request to see the accounts, I can't see how it is at all possible for them to carry on as they are. Once members and other trade media start hearing about the whole fiasco they will lose all credibility they have. They're in a lose / lose situation at the moment and if I was a member I'd certainly want an explanation and expect change.

The thing is, the Federation have, allegedly, a significant cash reserve. But it's not their money, it's the members money. Why should members abandon it and struggle to start all over  again? Isn't it worth trying the AGM option? The only thing you can be really sure of is it'll never happen if it's not tried!

Andrew, part of your argument is that no-one representing the Federation Committee turned up at the meeting. In their defence, you have to say that, being hosted at Ionic Systems, it was hardly conducted on 'neutral ground', was it? Perhaps, now they know people are serious, is the time to re-invite them to participate?

A few people have asked for my comments and want to know if I will support the PWCA. At this point I still think there is the chance to work with, and indeed change, the Federation. I don't think that starting from scratch is the answer. Whether it's a Federation or an Association, they're all run by committees and anyone who thinks it's ever easy to run one of any significance is mistaken.

I've always argued that if you don't contribute to something then you're not really entitled to knock it. As I wasn't at the meeting I don't know how seriously a pressure group was considered and maybe I should let people just get on with it.

So, I'm going to sit on the fence for now! I was once told 'never close a door without leaving a window open'. Others should also consider it's not good to burn bridges.

Regards

Mike

[Terry_Burrows]

I think mike has a very valid point or points ;)I know whats gone on just of late,you do have to think they have been going for some 50 years,that must say something ???the pwca have a mountain to climb,I am not saying they cannot do it if the Fed was to do publicly much more PR across the country,like I did with Anglian windows on radio,to help start www.findmeawindowcleaner.co.uk,I think people would listen,there are stacks of people who do not know the Fed exists
now thats after 50 years,that tells you PR is so very top of the list it cost money to do this,they have the money its up to them to do this,if they want to save the Fed,I think they have to start thinking this way,or lose its members,without members,no Fed :'(PR is the way of today

[Newwfpgatherer]

speaking as the voice in the wilderness:

A lone window cleaner

I agree 100% with Mike.

As for PR Turbo Terry, well you're laughin' mate, there's a job for you whatever, with your Stigmata

Pj

[Terry_Burrows]

 ;Dif you dont laugh we would all be very boring that would take away the true brit window cleaner Image,must never lose that ;)I fink stigmarta is better

[Newwfpgatherer]

;Dif you dont laugh we would all be very boring

I agree with Terry 100% too

Pea Jay

[williamx]

Mike

You made some good valid points, but with the fed agm over 5 months away can we as a trade group wait.

You said that can we expect the public to see us in the same light as gas fitters who are corgi registered, well why not, we may be only window cleaners, but it does take some skills to perform the job correctly.

I believe that the average window cleaner takes pride in the quality of work that they do, so why shouldn't the public see this.

AS for waiting for the fed to change well we have just over 5 months to go, before we can test this theory, but in the meantime the H & S are going to set out their guildlines concerning the WHAD, whatever the outcome it will mean evolving changes to the way window cleaners go about their business.

Many other trades have had federations that have split and they still do a good job for their industries, so will it hurt the Window Cleaner by having 2 organsations to look after its interests, at first there will be friction like will have already seen, but in the long run, I think the industry will benefit.

Mike, if you are right and the deadwood can be extracted from the federation and new life can be brought into it, then that is great news for the industry.

I think having 2 organastions will act as a balance for the window cleaners they represent, just like a set of scales.

 

[windows_chepstow]

I think having 2 organastions will act as a balance for the window cleaners they represent, just like a set of scales.
 

 If you're not making mistakes, you're not taking risks, and that means you're not going anywhere [The Fed?].  The key is to make mistakes faster than the competition, so you have more changes to learn and win.

Quote by (?) someone clever; not me.

But I think the point is that the Fed, like any other organisation needs competition; otherwise it'll just stagnate further.  I bet there'll be some positive and major changes made within the Fed within the next year or so.

Also, who was it said that if 'British business was the British Army; then we'd be bloody Japan'?

Actually, it doesn't matter who said it, but the underlying point is that the British Army thrives on competition at all levels, from inter-service, inter-Corps/Regiments, inter-company, inter-platoon; right down to the individual against individual.

To date, whose been the Federation's competition?

[Terry_Burrows]

 ;)proberly the IWCA and there 4000 mls away and no one knows them :-\which is a money gabbing org any way

[windows_chepstow]

;)proberly the IWCA and there 4000 mls away and no one knows them :-\which is a money gabbing org any way

Terry,

I know about the IWCA, but didn't even consider naming them as the Federation's competition; because they're not competition at all.

Hopefully, in my humble opinion, the Federation will improve; purely by being forced to by PWCA.  And PWCA will be forced to be competitive too.

That can't be a bad situation for the end user; us window cleaners.

[Terry_Burrows]

 ;)no I agree

[Windae Cleaner]

Look forward to New Trade Assoc.
I hope you can actually do some good for all window cleaners.
 As a sole trader who would like to take on one or two window cleaners , the issue of employers liability is a stumbling block and hopefully is something you can assist with.
Also , despite being a window cleaner for over 20 years and advertising in Yellow Pages , I was never approached by existing Federation to join . In fact I just heard about them a few years ago.
( I have since joined , although hesitating to re-join due to hearing about the accounts fiasco and a lack of action on certain matters. ie Not putting pressure on local councils here in Scotland to have a uniform licence scheme instead of the con and surely restrictive practice of requiring a licence for each district we work and even worse , each town in a district. At present I would have to have NINE licences to comply with this. A strong association could bring pressure to bear to sort this out. ) Feel better now .Just a grumpy old WC
I hope you approach all or as many window cleaners as you can to join this new group. You are badly needed.

[mark dew]

Yes, very good points made by all so far. Competition is healthy. Isn't that the very heart of our industry?
I am not a member of any organisation though i had considered joining the FED when i 1st heard about them (on here as it happens).

I would like to have the legitimacy (??) of being part of a recognised organisation but as a sole trader who does rural domestic only, i couldn't see a benefit to me.

I have had public liability from when i started 7/2003 apart from 1 week between policies.
I started with no customers and canvassed. I have about 120 customers now.
I pick up new work on a regular basis.
I am as reliable as the weather will allow, though i do say i will clean in the rain if they would like. Most don't. No problem.
I am always honest with them, whether it is with my opinion when asked or the occasions i have overcharged, (which i know when i do my accounts at the end of the day) it comes off next months or if they are a longer account will drop it through the letterbox.
Don't mind a chat or doing something extra that might take a couple of minutes longer for none other than an IOU on a cuppa 1 day.
My customers being older in larger houses make my job (in my opinion, anyway) recession proof.
I am not driven by the clock, only the weather.
I am very happy with my lot.
My customers like me. They see me as a real person.
These things give me the legitimacy i need.

What can any organisation offer me?

I'm confident i can get most things cheaper by spending a few evenings browsing the internet.
I get all of my information from here and the other forum in REAL TIME.
What organisation can offer me that?

"Also , despite being a window cleaner for over 20 years and advertising in Yellow Pages , I was never approached by existing Federation to join..."

I see solo window cleaners all of the time across my round. We are easy to recognise. mostly by a grin and a raise of the hand. We are all approachable.
I believe that any organisation (or forum) that wanted to become more inclusive with the silent majority of our industry should reach out to let all of us know that you exist. Once we know where to find you, then you can reel us in with your benefits.
There is no need for expensive TV ads to let the public know. It doesn't have to cost much money at all.

How can this be done? Easy. (i think??)

The organisation compiles a leaflet DOC on the internet (forum). With a website address(es) and a freefone number.

Put some energy into getting people on here and elsewhere to download and then print a few leaflets on their computer.

Then when they/we are out working and see a w/c up a ladder (or a pole) not to drive past but to stop and hand them the leaflet briefly explaining what exists and more importantly there is a community of like-minded people out there who get together (forums) and share tips and information to anyone who asks. For free.

Reel us in.

Once we are here we are hooked. There is just too much good information and advice for us to disappear again.
Once we know a FED or association exists and it can offer us definite benefits...... well who doesn't want to earn or save more just by filling in a simple form and paying a nominal fee? Outweighed by benefits of course!

We are the best advertisement for the industry. We are out in all weather. We are recognised by most. We chat with endless people week after week while on the job.
We are targets for any gossip. What's more our word is free. Who needs tv?
We can spread the word or at least any logo but we need to know where you are and most importantly we need to see the benefit.

But sigh....... who am i to comment.... Just little old me...... 1 man band.... very happy to continue as i have been...... what do i care about politics..... life is good.... don't need to be part of something else!!

But i could be tempted.........

I've largely been a spectator on these forums.... found you VERY VERY useful and i would like to thank you from the bottom of my wallet for making the FEDERATION/ASSOCIATION topic a very interesting, sometimes amusing, but at the moment an irrelevant subject.

I have huge respect for the time and effort that people have put into the FED and those responsible for the formation of the PWCA, the personal batterings many people have taken in their desire to explain their ideas to better the industry.
You both have a mountain to climb.

But your 1st step should be to reach out to all of us.
And you can only do that by 1st getting the majority of us onto an established forum. Once here most of us will stay.
We are the industry's primary access to the public.

Thousands, maybe millions of people read our leaflets/cards our "your windows have been cleaned today...." etc etc.... everyday.
If all or even the majority of that stationary carried a logo with web address along the bottom, something like www.windowcleanerinyourarea.com for example. Something that jo public might access out of curiosity.
This is where it all needs to start.

Am sorry this is long winded... maybe making up for lost time but i too, do sincerely want to help the industry as well.... just that..... well.... i'm human OK.
I want more for less at the end of the day.
Until i can be convinced it's beneficial to come in from the fringes i will continue to stay where i am very comfortable thank you. 

Good luck

Mark

[windows_chepstow]

If any Scottish based window cleaners on this forum has a licensing issue, i would like to hear from you, please email me and i will try and help.

Tom

Tom, why don't you start a new thread?

Tosh.