[Philip Hanson]

Hi,

I am grateful to Mike for allowing this topic, and having spoken to him, I have said that I will not have any objection if it is removed at any time, for any reason.

I really don't expect to find anything untoward, and as I understand it the Fed, of course, have procedures in place to make sure everything is properly accounted for - and let's not forget that the accounts are audited every year as well.

Had I just been allowed to go and see what I wanted to see without any of this hassle, then I would not have posted any topics anywhere about it, and there would be have been no problem.

What concerned me was that if another member, perhaps one who was not a member of the forums (and was a little less radical than me) wanted to have a look at something and got this hassle, they'd probably just give up in the end (as I think the Fed are hoping that I will) and that just isnt right.

The principle at stake here is that members should be allowed to go and see the records when they want to , and not have to kick up a stink in order for the rules to be obeyed.

I couln't agree more with what Mike has said.  I hear complaining about the window cleaning industry all the time, and my response to that is "go to the AGM and say this" or "complain about it formally" or "start a little group to do this" but DO SOMETHING  instead of just whining, and make it positive.

Last year I was worried that there was not enough information for window cleaners about all sorts of subjects.  I put pressure on the fed to improve its information, and it clearly was not going to, so I did something about it and this has meant a tremendous personal sacrifice, but it will (and has) brought the industry forward.

Then I hear people say "ah well I'd like to go the AGM but, you see I can't because..."

And "hmm yeah it sounds like a good idea, someone should do that...."

and "oh I don't think that'll get off the ground..."

It drives me to despair, and sometimes I think we have the federation we deserve.

Member List
The member list is an interesting thing with the Fed, and what I am really puzzled about is that it is held so secretly!  WHY??  Every other trade association I know of goes to great efforts to publish the member list on their website, and the reason for that is really simple.

If a member of the public wants a good window cleaner, who better to ask than the window cleaner's trade association who has members all over the UK?  All you have to do is go to their site and find a member in your area.  Good for the customer, because they'll be getting a tradesman who will have had to meet some at least some standards to be a member, great for the window cleaner because he's got some business for being a member.

Its an absolute no-brainer.

But the federation refuse to allow even their own members to know who they are.  Isnt it supposed to be an "association" ie a group with a common interest?  Are we not allowed to know who each other is?  Why is it a secret?  It really is baffling.

-Philip

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Craig

I have edited your last past. You are welcome to post statements and opinions but please bear in mind that we have a legal (and moral) responsibility to ensure that accusations are not just based on 'hearsay'.

I trust you'll understand our position

Regards

Mike

[williamx]

Phillip

Can you answer these few questions

1 How many are on the committee?

2 How many are needed to change the rules of the federation?

3 How many members normally turn up for the AGM?

4 Out of these how many members want changes to be made?

5 What do you need to replace any member on the Committee?

6 What are the chances of this happening?

7 How much is it to join?

8 When is the AGM?

[Philip Hanson]

I'll try

1 How many are on the committee?

10 committee members.

2 How many are needed to change the rules of the federation?
A special general meeting must be called for the purpose, and a majority vote (of members) is needed to change the rules.  In reality, if it were necessary, it could be called immediately after the AGM, so that everyone's already there.

3 How many members normally turn up for the AGM?
About 9, not including the 10 Committee members

4 Out of these how many members want changes to be made?

Probably most of them, but there is no way to out-vote the committee, who have in the past, block-voted.  Also, the chairman has a deciding vote in case of a tie

5 What do you need to replace any member on the Committee?

There are two ways:
- a committee member's appointment comes up for re-election every two years.  If it is un-opposed, he stays put.  If someone else puts themselve's forward for that position, there is a ballot and the person with the highest number of votes wins.

But, it isn't even that simple, because one committee member holds 2 positions on the committee at present - both the H&S office and Vice Chairman.  If he were voted out of one position, could he remain in the other?  That is not clear.

-a committee member may also be removed at a "summoned meeting of the federation" and a 2/3rds majority vote of the members present

6 What are the chances of this happening?
A committee member losing his position because someone else has challenged it and got more votes is quite possible.  Tam moffat was voted off this year in favour of Alan Lillington, but when Terry Burrows left, the federation re-instated Tam to fill the vacancy.  (The fed is allowed to put in who it thinks is best, but only if he then survives a confirming vote at the AGM at the end of that term)

the other way, a committee member being voted off by a 2/3rds majority of a summoned meeting, the odds of that happening are virtually Nil.  Even if it were to be summoned (and I doubt it would ever get that far) its likely that most of the committee would vote the same way, so you'd need at least 25 members present all voting the same way.

However, with proper organization, it could be done.  In theory, if a group of say 35 or so members got together and all decided to attend the AGM and vote the same way, they could raise any resolution they wanted (including removing committee members) and it would have to go through.

They could vote the old committee out entirely, vote new policies, they could even vote to dissolve the federation, and that its funds be distributed amongst existing members.  This has happened in the past to other organizations, and is perfectly possible.

Federations belong to their members, and the members can do what they want with them.

7 How much is it to join?
£65.  You need to provide your public liability insurance certificate, and also an endorsement from another member or a professional person.


8 When is the AGM?
Next March (probably) at or around Windex

-Philip

[williamx]

Phillip

Thanks for that.

There is one more question, The Federation has a lot of money gathering dust in the bank, can the committee spend as much of this as they wanted, or is there a limit or minimum that must be left in the bank.

For example if they spent all of their savings on a recruitment drive to get a many cleaners as possible, say 10% ( Thats 10% of 80000 window cleaners which = 8000 new members with a extra revenue of £520000 coming into the Federations coffers to spend on their members interests) ) of the cleaners out there who are not members at the moment.

The next AGM is march, that reminds me who told Caesar "BEWARE THE EYES OF MARCH".

[rosskesava]

I decided to have a look at the Federations website but I can't find one.

I've searched using various search engines.

Anyone know if they have a website?

Cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

http://www.nfmwgc.com/

 

[rosskesava]

Cheers for that. I'm surprised though I couldn't find it via Yahoo or Google.

Not exactly an erm .... great website.

I wanted to find out who can join and all that stuff and found absolutely nothing.

Don't think I'll be joining.

As for the above postings, it's turning out extremely interesting.

Cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

if youve got £65.00 and liability ins then anyone can join then you are a master   

[rosskesava]

Having read all the above and having looked at their website, it all sounds a bit 'stuffy' to me and anyway, it is odd that a member cannot do what they state in writting that a member is entittled to do?

The Federation may have noble and great aims but I don't think it is for me.

Cheers

[Philip Hanson]

As some here will know, recently I attempted to exercise my right as a Federation Member to examine the member list and the accounts of the Federation.  This is permitted under rule 24 of the Federation, that states that members may do so at "all reasonable times"

After much trouble, including me offering a choice of no less than 6 different dates, Beryl coming up with reasons why I could not attend that were not in the rules, the Federation finally agreed to my attendance on the 26th of this month.

Shortly after this, The Federation (without consulting me) re-arranged this to be the 3rd of October, and now the reason appears to be clear.

I have today received a letter from the Federation stating that my membership has now been terminated.  You may read this letter for yourself here:  (click to enlarge)


As you will see, the letter states that my membership has been terminated because I have broken rule 13(f) "deliberately acting against the Federations' code of conduct".  And also that rule 13(h) states that the committee can expel any member who , in their opinion, needs expelling.

For those who do not know, the Federation's code of conduct is set out below, which I challenge any committee member to provide evidence that I have broken:



I have not broken this code of conduct, nor have I been presented with any evidence thereof.  (However, it is interesting to note that principal 4 states "To be compliant and aware of Health & Safety regulations".  Andrew Lee, the Federation's Vice-chairman has broken this, I have provided evidence, and he has openly admitted his guilt.  This may yet lead to a prosecution by the HSE for breach of the WAHR 2005.)

Now, as you might expect, I believe that the Federation has come to this decision because they do not want me to examine the accounts.

This matter, which was initially quite mundane, has now taken a very serious turn.  What if other members want to examine the accounts?  Will they too be thrown out of the Federation?

The federation may have guessed that I would make public the fact that they have terminated my membership, but it seems to me that they may have thought however bad that may look, it might not be as bad as anything I might find in the accounts.

Is it alright for the federation to ignore its own rules when it sees fit?  Certainly not.

When an organization in charge of hundreds of thousands of pounds of other people's money would rather kick members out that let them see what their own cash has been spent on, it is nothing short of an outrage.

Where do we go from Here?
So, the question is, what do we do now?  I think that probably the federation would like me to now shut up and disappear, but I'm afraid that isn't going to happen any time soon.  In fact, three things will now happen:

1) I will raise a complaint with The British Cleaning Council of which the Federation is a member.  They are generally already aware of some goings on with the Federation, as they have printed Andrew Lee's statement on their website:

Click here to see it

2) At government level, Federations are generally overseen by The Department of Trade and Industry (The DTI) and I understand that they have a special unit which deals with matters just like this.  I am drafting a letter to them, and they may or may not launch an investigation.

3) As this is such an important issue, I will be making all of the details in this case as public as possible, along with copies of those photographs which have caused such an embarrassment to the federation.

The harm that has been done here is not really to me, but it is to window cleaners everywhere.  Until today, I did think that there might be a hope that the Federation could turn itself around eventually, and to that end I even offered to provide copies of PWC free of charge as a member benefit (this offer was flatly rejected by Bryan Dolby).

In my opinion, the Federation have had opportunity after opportunity to pull itself together, and yet still window cleaners are demanding for it to change.  In the last eight months, it has alledgedly lost a third of its members, and at that rate of decline, I believe it will not last another 18 months.

Could it be that some on the committee know that it is a sinking ship, and really do not want it to be saved?  After all, the fewer members it has if it finally disappears, the more cash may be given to those remaining.

It is a sad day for window cleaning in my opinion, but if anything, I hope these events stir up window cleaners to attend the meeting tomorrow with fresh ideas, and to move forward together to establish something that our industry so desperately needs.

-Philip

[Sarah Sarill]

Philip,
 
I am totally speechless at their attitude towards you.  It makes me even happier our company did not renew our membership if this is the way they treat people !!!
 
Good luck for tomorrow - my joining fee for a new fed is waiting already. (and that's how confident I am of your intentions for the future of our industry).
 
Sarah

[AuRavelling79]

Thought provoking stuff. Philip.

Are there other Fed members who might be prepared to follow the path you are treading. If it can be shown that several members have individually asked to see the accounts  and they too are stalled and then removed as members it would surely show something is amiss.

Then perhaps such could be used as evidence to support legal action or to report those responsible to the authorities.

Finally though, what was your motive in viewing the accounts/members list?

[Moderator David@stives]

thats it ,it was section 7 you forgot to wear your name badge.
or was it section 4 about embracing new health and safety regulations.

naughty boy   

[matt]

shocking mate

whats shocking is how people who pretend to me "a mate" can turn around and stab you in the back

Philip, it doesnt look like i can make the meeting tomorrow, as my sis in law is busy and cannot have my daughter

BUT

i hope you lot decide to start a new FED, something professional in the real sence, not the sence of "jobs and Jollies for the boys"

Come on ionics and philip, get a new fed that will direct us forward

[matt]

oh and i can also see the "dictator attitude" are still alive

dont like what we do.........then out you go

[24-7 S C Services]

HI Philip,

Well I must say, ‘I seen that coming’.

Upon reading your first post, I knew you where getting the run around. Now I would not say they have anything to hide, however, they may have given themselves a massive pay rise each at the last AGP due to diminishing members or they don’t want to admit or show anyone that they really only have 100 members (This is not a statement, I am just theorising).

I only recently joined the federation. WHY, well I was advised to or I should say I asked professionals advice, who said it would do me no harm and to date it hasn’t. However, I agree with all statements that the federation is out of date and also I firmly believe they have no intention in bringing it into the future.

The best thing that will come out of all of this is the meeting tomorrow. I will be attending as will many others. I am sure the outcome will be a new federation, because lets face facts, this is what is needed. Hopefully with people like Philip here and Craig Mawlin helping to form it. These are genuine people that have the interest of window cleaners in their hands and will bring the industry into the present day and lead it into the future.


Andrew

P.s. At least you got your money back.

[thewindowcleaner1]

The window cleaner terminates his membership with the federation..

(It was due for renewal any way)

Alan

[Mike_Boxall]

well, not really much surprise there then!

Unfortunately, I can't make the meeting tomorrow but somehow I suspect I won't be surprised with the outcome of that either.

Perhaps you could keep us informed Philip.

Regards

Mike

[matt]

where are the fed "leaders"

come on, let us know why this has happened