[Philip Hanson]

 Members of the federation have a number of rights, which are there to impove transparency, and also the perception of the organization.
 
One of the member's rights is expressed in the Federations rule book as follows: (rule 24)
 

"The committee of management shall cause the books and accounts of the Federation, and the names of the members to be kept open to inspection of any member or any person having an interest in the funds of the Federation at all reasonable times;  at the Registered office of the Federation, or at any place where the same are kept.  It shall be the duty of the General Secretary to produce the same for inspection accordingly."

As members, we have the right to look at the accounts and records of the Federation, (and the member list) and as we pay our fees, this is to be expected.
 
However,
 
I have made a request to examine the member list, and the accounts, and the Federation is making this very difficult.
 
You will notice that the rule states that they are to be kept open to inspection "at all reasonable times"
 
Its puzzling therefore, that even though I have now given adequate notice, and a selection of no less than 6 seperate dates that I am not being accomodated.
 
To me this is a very serious matter indeed, and raises the suspicion that the Federation has something to hide.  Why am I being put to so much trouble just to see a few accounts?
 
The fact is, we pay our fees, and we should expect that our own trade association will abide by its own rules.
 
What will be next?  Will they try to cancel my membership so that I can't see the accounts at all?
 
-Philip

[AuRavelling79]

Philip, can you explain exactly how they are proving "difficult"? - Perhaps they feel threatened, perhaps they feel you will post information here on the net? Perhaps they feel you will use it as an opportunity to contact their members? Perhaps they are simply human beings who are feeling beleagered by what they see as a request motivated by hostility towards them?

Just some possibilities I came up with. Nevertheless if them's the rules then them's the rules and they should be abided by.

which are there to impove transparency

I thought that was the aim of all window cleaners!

[windows_chepstow]

Perhaps they feel threatened, perhaps they feel you will post information here on the net?

If everything is above board, why should they feel threatened? 

[Philip Hanson]

I made it clear in my email that I did NOT want to see member details, only NAMES.

To illustrate how it has been made difficult, here is the sequence of events:

Beryl insisted that the accountant had to be present, and also a committee member, although the rules do not say that.

The first date I gave was Thursday the 15th (last week) which could not be done because Beryl had just come back from holiday.(so what?)

The next day (The Friday 16th) couldn't be done because Beryl had an appointment that day.  Also she said the accountant couldn't come that day.  (I asked if that Summerfield House would be empty, and I was assured it would not.  I made it clear that I did not need the attention of an accountant nor Beryl herself, and that I would send my list of queries in advance)

The following Monday (19th) was no good, again because the accountant couldn't come (I emphasized several times that the rules do not require this)

The Tuesday might have been okay, but she'd have to check with the accountant.

Then Beryl got back to me saying the only date that it could be done was the 26th (next monday)  Fine with me, and I emailed the queries.

Today Beryl has gotten back to me saying that the accountant can't come that day, and now the only day will be the 3rd of October.

I emailed back saying that did not want to be postponed again, and would be able to come either this thursday or Friday instead.  I also said that to prevent a member from exercising his rights was a contravention of the rules, and that I was sure that both non-member and members alike would be alarmed to know the trouble I am being put to just to see a few accounts and the member list.

This was the reply:

Dear Phillip

Further to your email sent 10.28 a.m. In cooperation with Rule 24 as well as your original request for a Monday date, regardless of your apparent intimidation we consider that Monday 3rd October is a practical time for all concerned.

Regards

Beryl Murray

Now, I did not express any preference for a Monday date at all.  I also mentioned to Beryl that the rules state that the records are open to inspection "at all reasonable times" and that it did not say "at a time which is practical for all"

Members pay for the Federation, and they do not expect to be thwarted in their efforts to exercise their own rights, especially in accordance with the Fed's own Rules!!

Another point, with the requests I was making, I was repeatedly asked "why do you want to see that?"
The fact that I don't have to give a reason, and that the fed should be more than willing to assist (And BE SEEN to be more than willing) seemed to escape their notice.

Sounds fishy to me

Me too.

Why do I want to see the Feds accounts and member list?

Well, firstly, because I'm entitled to, and even if I wasn't looking for any information, members should occasionally look over things of their association - it will discourage corruption.

Secondly, I am interested to know what certain amounts are made up of in the annual accounts.


Member list, I am interested to know exactly how many members there are, and I want to establish it for a fact for myself.

-Philip

[williamx]

Phillip

What you should do is the following.

1  Ask for the telephone number of the accountant to see if you can pair up a date ealier than the 3 October meeting, if they won't give this information then agree to the 3 October date.

2  I would inform them that if this date is changed for whatever reason then you will have to suspect that a crime has been committed, and you will be informing the POLICE that a possible fraud has been committed and can they look into the federations accounts.

3  If there is a governing body who they are responsible to like Companys House or whoever then make a offical complaint.

[Moderator David@stives]

i think they are stalling for the 3rd because of the Open Forum at the end of this month.

it  is not hard to work out is it.

They dont want people armed with the details from the fed

just a guess

 dave

[windows_chepstow]

If the Fed won't bend, why not pospone the date of the Open Forum till you have the information you're after?

[Ian_Giles]

Mmm, Good point David, sly suckers aren't they (allegedly)

Ian

[matt]

come on philip

you know the score

you only need to contact them and say your a "professional" and in the "gang" and they will roll out the red carpet for you

 

they are running scared 

[thewindowcleaner1]

The plot thickens,

Or possible they need time time to re write stuff,(possibly)(allegedly)
going by the last sheet I had from them when I rejoined about how to charge for a job (it was the same infoe and priceing as the first one I had several years before)

I like a good mystry to keep me intrested.

[gaza]

They may be to busy looking for impacted dirt
gaza

[matt]

philip

on a rather funny note

i think they dislike you more than my goodself right now

[Philip Hanson]

I can live with being disliked, what I can't live with is when an organization in charge of other people's money will not obey its own rules, and is secretive about the very things it should be up-front about.

I don't think its to do with the open forum, I think it might be more sinister than that.  If my membership is suddenly cancelled, and happens before the 3rd, well, that will tell me all I want to know.

Then I'll get in touch with the SFO, and all hell will break loose.

I think I feel another scandal coming on... uh oh just when the last one was dying down.

-Philip

[matt]

im not a member, so i guess i cannot comment

i worked for a local council as a carpenter for many years

i then helped out a little with the GMB union rep, went to a few meetings etc

all the meetings and courses were just a excuse for a Jolly at the members expense

its not for me

[windows_chepstow]

Then I'll get in touch with the SFO, and all hell will break loose.

Whose the SFO?

[williamx]

Serious Fraud Office

[thewindowcleaner1]

Or Sinister Federation Operation

[rosskesava]

Hi Phillip

The outcome of this will be interesting and I hope you post it.

Apart from the fact you are a business man and business is as business is, I personally like your slant on things and making waves can be fun.

One thing though, what made you think that the accounts needed looking at to start with?

That is what to me is interesting and it must have something to do with an accountant needing to be there. To my mind and from what I've read in this thread, the Fed know what you know or they may suspect you know something and every bit of knowledge always has a source and a reason behind it.

Or as they wrote in an e mail, they somehow feel intimidated for their own reasons which is also equally curious. Either that or they just don't like you.

Or have you got some type of agenda that they know about or are worried about  and which you havn't said in your original posting?

Cheers and go for it

PS We bought another pump today.  Any chance of a buy one get one free thing as we've more duplicate bits to buy?

[Craig_Mawlam]

At this meeting I mean to draw a line in the sand. On one side we have the window cleaning industry pre September 30th, on the other side of the line we have the window cleaning industry post October 1st 2005. September 30th is a neutral day and on that day we will discuss window-cleaning post Oct 1st ONLY. 
 
I believe that we simply will not have sufficient time to discuss the past, because the future could be more exciting.
 
So no time for recriminations, personal attacks on individuals, companies or organisations, we are only concerned with the future. If anyone wants to talk about the past then we'll take a vote about evicting the person from the meeting!
 
There will be lots of debating and voting, so if you do not bring a "can do" attitude then you'll be wasting your time by attending.
 
Looking forward to meeting all of those who have responded thus far.
 
Best regards
 
Craig


This is what I have already said about the meeting on the 30th. The Feds accounts are about the past and no matter what Philip may or may not discover I will not allow discussion about it at the meeting.

I expect that Philip will find that everything is in order, so why deny his rights as a member, is it because he has a background in accounting, is it because he may report any irregularities he may find. Why postpone his inspection of the Fed's accounts until after their committee meeting on the 26th, is it because they plan to revoke his membership so that the rules no longer apply to him?

Rgds
Craig Mawlam

[Mike_Boxall]

An interesting topic and one I hope will not get out of control.

I am absolutely sure that, at this point, Philip is not suggesting that anything 'fraudulent' is being covered up and to suggest such at this point is just irresponsible!

Clearly they seem to be being obstructive and it will be interesting to get Philips feedback once he has seen the information he wants to see.

The Federation topics always seem to get heated and generally speaking those that shout the loudest are usually the ones that have never been members, have never contributed to it's running and really don't understand how difficult it is to get people involved.

Although I don't think Andrew Lee is the only committee member to talk 'compacted dirt' I don't think people really understand the importance of supporting the Federation and it's aims.

Make no mistake - if the Federation is lost it will be a significant loss to the whole industry!

If you don't like how it's run then get involved and change it!

Regards

Mike Boxall

ps I have been undecided as to whether this topic should be deleted or not. Generally, it portrays the Federation in a bad light and that's not a good thing but I have decided to keep it (for now at least) on the basis that I do believe Philip has a genuine interest in moving the industry forward. I trust that Philip will also be happy to confirm that everything is order once he has seen the information he wants to see!