[dave park]

 Today a custard came running out as i gets to her house and says "my husband doesn't want you to use that pole thing on our windows cos its made our bedroom window have condensation in it".
Have any of you guys had this and is it possible??

[matthewprice]

seals do go i noticed this last year and this as well ,but think it is due to the sub zero temps.

[dave park]

But is it possible that cleaning it wfp could cause it - only been done once with pole, trad before that, but its over a bay window and i've had a few near misses recently on the ladders with these sort of jobs.

[Spruce]

Hi
Look at this website

http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misted-up.htm

Spruce

[dave park]

Cheers, had a look on there and all i can make out is that if the windows were fitted correctly there's no reason why wfp would cause the unit to fail Not sure if the custard will like that but thats tough  

[Spruce]

Hi Dave,

What was the customer expecting? You to replace all his windows?

Wfp hasn't caused the problem, but it isn't helping it either. Every time we wash a warm window, we cool it down, so in effect it takes another breath and sucks in some more moisture laden air. As has been stated, the windows will always look worse after we have finished, so we get blamed for causing the problem.

The customer usually won't except your explanation so expect to lose them. We have all experienced this over the years. In fact, if the issue between you starts to escalate then I would probably take the initiative and stop cleaning them, as it will end with you doing a clean and not getting paid for it.

I have noticed over the years that the first windows to break down appear to be south facing and usually the openers.
If you have customers on either side of the problem house, I would tend to bring the subject up casually with them, so they are aware of the reason why you don't clean there any longer.

Spruce

[Mike_G]

Windows blow over time, some sooner than others. I did a flat (trad) the other day and her windows have only just been replaced (3 weeks ago) and one of the panes has already blown, it happens. As for your customer, she might find all the others start going now if they were all fitted at the same time...

[richard jagger]

Let get rid of the miths. The reason why the worm moisture laden air inside the glass will condensate on the glass around the sides and bottom of the frame is because the aluminium inner frame of double glazing is a good conductor of cold temps.The reason polling will help to increase is because the cold water will transfer  to this aluminium inner frame and then the glass which is perfect in the process of condensation.This is not guess work its fact.You will not find this happening in summer.

[richard jagger]

If the seals a gone the moisture will appear between the two glass sheets. This is not were seals braking start.It is difficult to blow a Seals as is so after said on this site. Its a blockage in the bleed hole at the bottom of the frame which leaches out at the bottom of the frame were it meets the sill,this needs to be cleaned out.IF this bleed hole is blocked the frame will fill up and the double glazing will be standing with its feet in water and the foil tape also has breath hole in and the water can filter through these holes.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

have you been involved in the glazing industry wiz??

[james44]

If the seals a gone the moisture will appear between the two glass sheets. This is not were seals braking start.It is difficult to blow a Seals as is so after said on this site. Its a blockage in the bleed hole at the bottom of the frame which leaches out at the bottom of the frame were it meets the sill,this needs to be cleaned out.IF this bleed hole is blocked the frame will fill up and the double glazing will be standing with its feet in water and the foil tape also has breath hole in and the water can filter through these holes.

your right!

[AuRavelling79]

As said above - South facing openers cop it first - especially bathroom ones.

Main causes:-

Age. They start to go at 10 years plus as the adhesives break down.

Poor manufacturing so the glue breaks down earlier.

Temperature changes over a long period - which is why southerly sun-facing ones go first. The inner and outer panes are at different temperatures and expand at different rates (eg in midsummer in direct sunlight the outer pane is at 40 degrees the inner pane is at about 25 - in midwinter the outer pane is at zero and the inner at about 20)

Vibration - openers and doors usually go first.

Do window cleaners cause premature failure?

Marginally perhaps - once a month or once every two months we turn up and wash the window clean or mop it with soap and blade it. If the seals are intact then no water or detergent will get to the edge of the unit either way.

Do we push a window shut? A bit of vibration.

Temperature change - warm water on a cold day or vice versa might make a bit of difference.

So what we do is just normal wear and tear. If the housewife uses a rag and spray she will be pressing on the glass causing far more vibration than we do.

In short they've always broken down - it's just that more and more people have had them ten years plus which seems to fit the "Oooh! It's that new wfp thingummy!" rubbish they come out with.

[VSP Home Care]

I used to make double glazing units and frames, unless somethings changed over the years this is how it's done.

The silver spacer bar you seen in between the glass sheets is filled with little beads that react to moisture and turn to a solid lump in an effort to stop the ingress of water.  If you've ever looked at a unit out of the frame you'll also notice it's sealed with hot melt and also sometimes taped over that.

If a unit has moisture on the inside either the person that made it left moisture in there (very rare but happens and will get sacked) or the unit has broken down and needs replacing.  I'd say there's absolutely no way a WFP could cause that damage, the only thought I have is that there are poor drainage vents in the frame and water has pooled and rotted the hot melt some how but again very unlikely.  I'd advise them to contact their supplier and check the 10 year warranty 

Call a few local firms and ask their opinion but I'd be surprised if it differs from mine, although I stand to be corrected 

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

99.9 % of unit breakdown is from 'cheap' frames incorrectly fitted.
The 'SEALED' units can really only break down through frame movement.
As posted by spruce closing a 'opener' with your pole repeatedly could cause breakdown over time due to the movement and slight twisting.
 Doors are prone to break down because of there constant movement and twisting.
The top end window suppliers offer longer guarantees on there 'units' due to there frame quality and 'proper' fitting methods.
Sealed unit breakdown is caused (99.9% of the time) by movement.
Cleaning with wfp just highlights the problem.
Its like having a hole in your welly. You know its there but standing in a puddle highlights it.
Hope this helps 

[VSP Home Care]

I don't see the movement thing to be honest, I get what you guys are saying but can't see a unit moving in a frame.  They are normally very tight indeed beading on one side and rubber on the other and trust me that stuff can be hard to whack in, even with a block of wood and a hammer.

I'd lay money that there is no drainage of the frame, openers always have a drain hole or two and the frame has channels to let the water pass down to the next hole at the bottom of the frame.  I've seen them blocked straight after fitting when there's been a bit of swarf clogging it up.

If the unit was badly made and there's a hole or two in the hot melt, then a build up of water due to blocked drainage holes there's a good chance it will break down in time.

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

vsp I am talking about frame movement not unit movement.
Fitting a frame with expanding foam 'can and will' affect the life of a 'sealed unit'
Fitting a window with non stainless strength bars will cause frame movement given time AND result in unit failure.
The desicant fitted/filled in units can leak within 2 months of a new window been incorectly fitted thus indicating frame and unit movement. Add wfp water 6 month down the line and that= misted units.
Its not the wfp water thats to fault it the window quality/fitting.
   

[Spruce]

Every time you close a window, the 'bang' causes a shock vibration which over time will cause a breakdown to occur.

I've sat in the van on a windy day and I've seen the glass moving and flexing in the frame by the reflection. I find it amasing that they actually last as long as they do.

Spruce

[David Kent @ KentKleen]

here here

[VSP Home Care]

I can see movement being a problem to an extent but I worked in Glazing for 3 years I think and don't ever remember one coming back due to unit failure as in the hot melt failing and water getting in, the frame can move about, openers can drop etc but at the end of the day I'd expect to see a cracked unit due to movement  especially if they didn't toe and heel it with rubber blocks.

That hot melt has to fail for water to get inside the glass unit. (we are talking inside the unit not the house aren't we?)

I still remember the one and only unit I ever sent out with dust in    I was on £55 a week for a 6 day week.  Boss walked in and calmly lit a £50 in front of my face, calmly said "this is what you're doing to me" and walked off 

Lesson learned 

I've just never heard it mentioned before, but then I've not worked on the windows for 20 years    And maybe the fitters at my old firm were the dogs dangler's   

Then again after 20 years maybe all my windows were replaced after 4-5 years, God only knows.

Another point though is that UPVC was only just invented back then and I worked only with Ali frames, so you could be bang on the money.

They seem to only be fitting the super foam filled stuff these days, bit of a waste of time according to my old firm but it's keeping them ticking over.

[VSP Home Care]

Cheers for that link Spruce, thats a good site.  This section highlights what we've all said really;

http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/misty-upvc-ali.htm