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Gurdy

  • Posts: 41
V.A.T problem
« on: February 16, 2011, 07:45:24 pm »
Hi all
We have two wfp vans on the road at the moment and want to put a third van on the road in the near future and build another round. Problem is that we struggle to keep our gross profit under v.a.t bracket at the moment.
Around half of our work is commercial which would be no problem being vat registered, but the other domestic customers are going to get a large price increase . Our average house price is around £25 so worried that start putting  20% vat on top is goin to loose to many customers.
 Anyone in the same boat or has a good solution.
Cheers Ben

R W C™

  • Posts: 1649
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2011, 07:58:49 pm »
Can you not start a second w/c business in your wifes/friend/relatives name and have one vat registered for commercial and one for domestic...

Mark Farrimond

  • Posts: 119
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2011, 07:59:26 pm »
Its your turnover that needs to exceed the VAT threshold, not your gross profit.  Have seen clients of ours set up two Ltd company businesses, 1 for commercial, 1 for domestic to keep the domestic work VAT free.  Speak to your accountant to see if that is worthwhile. And if you have common directors for both you can have 1 insurance policy too.   :)

Sapphire Window Cleaning

  • Posts: 2942
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2011, 08:01:32 pm »
I thought the VAT bracket was on turnover not profit.
I was thinking a lot about this whilst I was drawing up my business plan.

When I eventually reach VAT threshold I will only increase residential customers prices by 10% in the first year and I absorb the remaining 10%, then increase them again by 10% the following year.

2 X WFP vans should be bringing in between £450 and £600 per day!
Having 3 will increase to £800-£900 per day


Matt
Reaching parts traditional window cleaners can not reach.

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2011, 09:14:47 pm »
I thought the VAT bracket was on turnover not profit.
I was thinking a lot about this whilst I was drawing up my business plan.

When I eventually reach VAT threshold I will only increase residential customers prices by 10% in the first year and I absorb the remaining 10%, then increase them again by 10% the following year.

2 X WFP vans should be bringing in between £450 and £600 per day!
Having 3 will increase to £800-£900 per day


Matt

That's a quick turnround matt, from selling your escort van to reaching the vat threshold! ;D

Richard Neal

  • Posts: 1737
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2011, 09:40:12 pm »
If you become vat registared you can then claim back 20% on fuel and anything for the business that has vat on it so you do not have to put all work up by 20%.
Im not scared of heights, just falling from them.
mrwindowclean@hotmail.co.uk

Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2011, 09:42:14 pm »
Winp
that thread the other day when you mentioned the one bedroomed flat (no it's two bed)  i was dying to steam in and burst the grandiose bubble.What stopped me was i though it was cruel, and then when he said more about himself i was glad i hadn't.

niceandclean

  • Posts: 1897
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2011, 09:43:41 pm »
Its your turnover that needs to exceed the VAT threshold, not your gross profit.  Have seen clients of ours set up two Ltd company businesses, 1 for commercial, 1 for domestic to keep the domestic work VAT free.  Speak to your accountant to see if that is worthwhile. And if you have common directors for both you can have 1 insurance policy too.   :)

I was informed by my accountant that you can not do this. You can not operate 2 businesses from the same address, have the same telephone numbers, using the same equipment and vehicles to do the same job.

mikecam

Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2011, 09:57:17 pm »
If you become vat registared you can then claim back 20% on fuel and anything for the business that has vat on it
That sounds a great idea.


so you do not have to put all work up by 20%.

No? Hows that work then?

George P

  • Posts: 1304
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2011, 10:03:22 pm »
we was told that if you ran it from same adderss it would be classed as one business so all would have to be vat registed,

formb

Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2011, 10:12:47 pm »
Google VAT flat rate.

Richard Neal

  • Posts: 1737
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2011, 10:16:33 pm »
If you become vat registared you can then claim back 20% on fuel and anything for the business that has vat on it
That sounds a great idea.


so you do not have to put all work up by 20%.

No? Hows that work then?

When i was Vat registared in my old business i would clam the vat back on all fuel, tolls, advertising etc, you cant do this if youre not vat registared so that is 20% you are losing, so if you go vat registared you overheads do not go up 20%.
Simples
Im not scared of heights, just falling from them.
mrwindowclean@hotmail.co.uk

Neil Gornall

  • Posts: 640
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2011, 10:17:34 pm »
If you become vat registared you can then claim back 20% on fuel and anything for the business that has vat on it so you do not have to put all work up by 20%.
Not if your flat rate VAT, which means you pay 12% (11% in your first year)
Flat rate means you can only claim on purchases of 2k and above.

Richard Neal

  • Posts: 1737
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2011, 10:19:24 pm »
If you become vat registared you can then claim back 20% on fuel and anything for the business that has vat on it so you do not have to put all work up by 20%.
Not if your flat rate VAT, which means you pay 12% (11% in your first year)
Flat rate means you can only claim on purchases of 2k and above.

I dont know about that method mate i was just fully VAT registared. It was about 10 years ago.
Im not scared of heights, just falling from them.
mrwindowclean@hotmail.co.uk

Neil Gornall

  • Posts: 640
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2011, 10:22:19 pm »
I went VAT registered Dec 1st, I am flat rate which means I charge 20% but pay back 11% however I cant claim on purchaces below 2k.
Its swings and roundabounts. I charge my commercial work and gain a little but dont charge on domestics so lose on those.

Sapphire Window Cleaning

  • Posts: 2942
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2011, 10:31:47 pm »
I went VAT registered Dec 1st, I am flat rate which means I charge 20% but pay back 11% however I cant claim on purchaces below 2k.
Its swings and roundabounts. I charge my commercial work and gain a little but dont charge on domestics so lose on those.




So you can't claim VAT on fuel and replacement equipment etc?
The only purchase over £2K you would get in the year really is your van and system.



Matt
Reaching parts traditional window cleaners can not reach.

mikecam

Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2011, 11:33:55 pm »

When i was Vat registared in my old business i would clam the vat back on all fuel, tolls, advertising etc, you cant do this if youre not vat registared so that is 20% you are losing, so if you go vat registared you overheads do not go up 20%.
Simples

If he goes VAT registered he HAS to charge VAT ontop of his service charges, thats currently 20% . Yes he can reclaim VAT back on outgoings but its likley to be a very small percentage of what he will be charging in VAT.So it will still leave him with a price increase and a VAT bill. Of course as others have said, the flat rate route and he'll lose about 11% of his turnover

Neil Gornall

  • Posts: 640
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2011, 07:46:25 am »

When i was Vat registared in my old business i would clam the vat back on all fuel, tolls, advertising etc, you cant do this if youre not vat registared so that is 20% you are losing, so if you go vat registared you overheads do not go up 20%.
Simples

If he goes VAT registered he HAS to charge VAT ontop of his service charges, thats currently 20% . Yes he can reclaim VAT back on outgoings but its likley to be a very small percentage of what he will be charging in VAT.So it will still leave him with a price increase and a VAT bill. Of course as others have said, the flat rate route and he'll lose about 11% of his turnover
No I dont HAVE to charge VAT, if i choose to absorb the VAT its my choice, however I HAVE to pay it.

Nameless Drudge

  • Posts: 997
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2011, 11:36:30 am »
Think about vat when your actual(not declared) turnover is getting to £100k or more,and then flat rate it. You have 2 choices here and thats, be a dilgent unpaid tax collector for the treasury or a shrewd businman that realises the current vat threshold is too low and stifling your efforts to expand and employ and thereby handicapping your true worth to the economy.Many,many accountants think they work for the treasury,find one that works for you.How are you supposed to pay the vat due when you havn`t even been paid yourself?,its a full time job nearly just sorting it out. Try de-registering if you have a downturn/lose a few employees etc.,another nightmare. If you look closely at your money you`ll find theres probably only a couple of days a week where you earn money you get to keep,well make that maybe one day if you vat register at £70k. If this dilemma ever comes my way i`ll sell and compact. Vat register and you WILL know what cash-flow problems are all about. if you are at this dilemma then do whatever is neccesary to avoid vat,use different umbrellas to keep individual turnovers down,consolidate it if you must when you get to £150k turnover and then you are in the ballpark for vat.
               I talk to accountants informally,just go and ask one what they think of the threshold at 70k and your next extra  pound  turnover gives you a £14k liability,alright £8.4k at flat rate. A 20 percent increase of cost to customers because of vat !,your customers are waiting to be hoovered up by the non vat man. No problem at all some will tell you,in fact some will say double your prices and if you dont lose half of them you are better off.Real world says "NO".
                                     Lets say you were able to hide turnover so that when you did register you were not going to be worse off. So 68k appx. turnover becomes 84 k appx. turnover following year and you register. Basically you should not be worse off on paper ,though the bookeeping bill has just gone up 5k a year or do it yourself. Very soon you cannot find time to clean windows,everything you have strived for is in the hands of others.Yet all problems come to you,so delegate but then that guy wants a pay rise. You are now trapped in red tape and bureacracy,your part-time book-keeper is on 26 weeks maternity leave. How can the vat man want £4837 when i only have £937 in the bank and 2 van lease payments due, and he is going to fine me if its not paid this week? All this is manageable but you need to leap to £150k turnover to justify putting up with it and seeing something left at the end,maybe.
                                  Now some people may revel in this and enjoy the local chamber of commerce meetings etc but it wouldn`t be for me and it  requires   dedication and levels of energy i don`t currently have,which is why i am typing this and having a lazy morning though at least i am feeling a bit guilty about it. Time to get the slippers off and go do the £48 scheduled today or tommorrow,push fridays £112 to next week for synchronisation purposes. Thats how i will justify it !

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: V.A.T problem
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2011, 12:01:06 pm »
Can you not start a second w/c business in your wifes/friend/relatives name and have one vat registered for commercial and one for domestic...

No