[DMK115]

I used to work in an office once and the windy used to be trad and did a great job but then he changed to WFP and after that the windows always had spots on them after they'd dried, what was he doing wrong?

Dave

[dazmond]

I used to work in an office once and the windy used to be trad and did a great job but then he changed to WFP and after that the windows always had spots on them after they'd dried, what was he doing wrong?

Dave

probably not rinsing enough if its spotting or water not 000 tds

wfp really does work very well.the problem is there is slightly different techniques to learn regarding the windows/frames your cleaning and a lot of employees esp on commercial jobs will do a crap job due to generally not caring and rushing the job.

im not saying wfp is perfect as i get the odd run and a bit of spotting occasionally but its very rare these days.


do you think we would spend all this money on equipment if it didnt work?



dazmond

[Lee GLS]

Nice one gold, I was trying to think of an example to illustrate it. I think you hit the nail on the head, or maybe you used a nail gun 

[Johnny B]

Gold,

In my case I believe you are right. I am trad and if I say it myself, am very, very thorough (virtually OCD I would say).

My fear is that if I am on the ground washing a window 20 feet away from me, how am I going to see if I have got every speck of stubborn bird poo etc off? I would need to be 'up there' to see the job has been done to my exacting standards. I am not saying I am a good windy. I am saying I have to work hard to get excellent results and am not satisfied until I get them.

My fear is failure to do an excellent job. When I am up the ladder with my nose 2 inches from the window, I can see that I have left it spotless. I would fear that I would fail to do the job any better with WFP than I am doing now the trad way because of failure to notice marks left by my failure to be thorough enough, resulting in my failure to please my customers.

John.

   

[barry mallett]

john , i know someone who might be able to help you mate 

[PAIN IN THE GLASS]

Well another member of the trad club here. And always will be. I like to see a finished product which is nice clean windows and frames when I leave the premises. And my custies agree.

[rob noonan]

Personally i prefer wfp over trad also id rather clean with a 60/65ft wfp than having to climb a ladder to get that high.
 

[Newannaive]

i'd rather climb 65ft! 

[woody1]

One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned

[barry mallett]

totally agree mate ladders should never be banned .    just ban the numptys that use em

[Nathanael Jones]

One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned

The 2007 HSA work at height directive is part of the "STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 299 of 2007,Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007"

While this directive covers nearly every aspect of health and safety in the workplace, Part 4 specifically deals with "Work at height". The extract shown below contains the key regulations that limit ladder use for window cleaning. We believe it is "reasonably practicable" to clean windows without ladders, making ladders an unnecessary risk, and therefore their use is in direct violation of this law.

Avoidance of risks from work at height.


98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.

[Gordon_Taylor]

FEAR, that makes me laugh,  how can you talk about fear when nearly everybody who is wfp on this site at the slightest bit of criticism of wfp the first thing that gets thrown in is that if you use ladders then your "going to fall off", "your gonna break both your legs", "your Be off for months",

So it is the wfp user that uses fear to justify your use of wfp.

I use mostly trad methods because I enjoy it, that's right enjoy it, it's not because of fear I have converted parts of my round to wfp but have gone back to trad.

And just because people enjoy wfp pole it doesn't mean I've got to be dictated to, if you enjoy wfp then fine you crack on, but as for wfp being superior, well I don't think so.

Good luck to all window cleaners what ever method you use.

Gordon

[dazmond]

as a window cleaner who was trad for 16 years with 2 ladder falls and a few near misses.FEAR DEFO comes into it when you sliding down the wall!! .

seriously i cant understand how any window cleaner loves climbing ladders 100+ TIMES A DAY!!as for wfp doing a better job.i would of hated to admit it when i was a die hard tradder but after 9 months wfp i can honestly say it does in the majority of cases.frames and glass come up so much better and you can get in all the nooks and crannies.

i still use trad on some ground floor work and the odd up and over flat roof jobs but in general wfp wins hands down.my ladders come off the van a few times a week generally for hopping over gates or the odd flat roof and for me ive never been happier with my working life.


regards


dazmond

[cat9921]

This is my view on the matter

First I do not believe that there is a trad window cleaner that would not benefit from WFP .. There must be occasions that trad WC have to leave windows that they can not get to .... I.E roofs are too wet and slippery or car / caravan is in the way

and as for trad window cleaners love cleaning windows that way why do most of them try not to get windows that are leaded  :

However this is supposed to be a trad VS WFP post

I am a window cleaner in my van there are trad tools and my trusty WFP system .... I use what ever system is best for me .... But I have to say I find I use my WFP more then trad


Trad is great it rocks nothing wrong with it.. and WFP where would I be without it

as for which one is better thats down to what you class as better

TRAD and WFP is like strawberries and cream they compliment one another

Adders  

[Ian W]

I use both methods, but I have to admit to preferring trad.

The view that the H&S rules effectively bans ladders is, in my opinion, wrong. Reasonably practicable doesn't mean if it CAN be done from the ground, it MUST be. All sorts of considerations also have to be taken into account. Cost of systems, practability/safety of carrying large amounts of water, unsuitable windows all conspire to make a ban impractical.

There was an article I saw about a guy who had health problems which stopped him from driving. He used to push a cart around with his ladders and buckets on. He would not be able to use wfp in any circumstance. His consideration of wfp was not reasonably practicable. Therefore, ladders are simply not banned.

H&S do not prosecute trad window cleaners wholesale when ladders are used safely (and I believe they would prosecute in this climate of cutbacks to justify their budgets) because ladders are simply not banned.

A hypothetical question for you. A new window cleaning system is invented which requires an articulated truck to carry and costs 2 million pounds. H&S think it is the best thing since sliced bread and write new rules which state this new system should be used where reasonably practicable. Following your reasoning, this would effectively outlaw wfp as we know it, but would you continue to use it? An artic wouldn't be very practical on most domestic work and the cost would only allow the largest of businesses to aspire to owning one, but I bet no-one would stop using wfp because it was "banned".

Let the defensive posts begin!  

[birdymiller]

One thing that bugs me is this ladders are banned or hs will fine you. no they wont ladders are not banned and will never be banned

The 2007 HSA work at height directive is part of the "STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 299 of 2007,Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007"

While this directive covers nearly every aspect of health and safety in the workplace, Part 4 specifically deals with "Work at height". The extract shown below contains the key regulations that limit ladder use for window cleaning. We believe it is "reasonably practicable" to clean windows without ladders, making ladders an unnecessary risk, and therefore their use is in direct violation of this law.

Avoidance of risks from work at height.


98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.

Who is this "we" that thinks it is "reasonably practicable" without ladders nat? All you guys who spend loads on wfp!

[barry mallett]

spend loads  i dont think a grand is loads

[Ian W]

spend loads  i dont think a grand is loads

It is if you haven't got it! 

[Smudger]

Is that because your trad ? 

wfp is not expensive and trying to justify an argument on those grounds is nieve at best.

Gold has already made the perfect statement on the subject.

if you want to trad then by all means clean windows that way, but the world and technology move on...

Darran

[Ian W]

Is that because your trad ? 

wfp is not expensive and trying to justify an argument on those grounds is nieve at best.

Gold has already made the perfect statement on the subject.

if you want to trad then by all means clean windows that way, but the world and technology move on...

Darran

No, I use both methods. Just an off the cuff remark... 

I have no problems with people who use wfp exclusively, but not with comments like ladders are banned...  :