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Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 11:20:10 pm »

I bet Ian_Giles has been working; he's a tough old dog.  I'll text him now.

Tough? ??? What's that got to do with freezing on glass and jets freezing up?

Do you two do special warmer glass than me then? Or just liars? ;)

hot water
Tried hot water. Still froze.

Bonny lad, call me a liar, or even insinuate I'm a liar again; please!
??? Ok, I think you're lying. Unless you have some magic way no-one knows about.

And malcom...why don't you just do one...  Accuse me of talking rot when that's all you spout. I know what I'm talking about, and unlike most on here I'm straight and honest. ::)

Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 11:22:15 pm »
Hot water will freeze quicker than cold on glass.  It's to do with the density of hot water; it's less dense so freezes faster.  C'mon guys; you're window cleaners; you should know this.

Undiluted screenwash at a couple of quid for 2 to 4 litres, which is enough for a days work if you use it wisely has a freezing temp of -15 Celsius, according the brand I use, which is more than adequate to cope with the -5C we've been experiencing.

And obviously where there's a will there's a way.

But to accuse people of being liars is quite outrageous in my opinion.  And I think there's more kudos in being prepared for a harsh Winter, from a financial point of view, and just taking the time off and meditating!

Ian_Giles texted back; he's been working but says he's spent a lot of time Winterising his van.

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 11:27:22 pm »
It might not be a bad idea for a few local windies to chip in together and rent a unit where you can park vans inside. Might save a lot of dosh!
A Co operative water making facility could be incorporated...........................................
thats a gr8 idea really u know ;D ;D ;D
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 11:36:44 pm »
Squeaks, why won't you answer your phone?   ??? ???

I wish to discuss whether I'm a liar or not! 

Ah, look, man; it's not that difficult.  Get a roof rack, get some ladders, bucket, screenwash and clean windows.  We've had it mild compared to other parts of the country.

What's your problem?  You've had all year to prepare for Winter?  Why not stop being feckless, and remember that if you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you've always gotten. 

SherwoodCleaningSe

  • Posts: 2368
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 11:37:18 pm »
It has been proved that hot water sometimes freezes faster than cold but it's not been proved why yet, there are a number of theories. However ice cold water freezes a lot faster than warm water. Ice cold water I'm sure even freezes faster than hot water. Check the temperature of the water in your tanks if it's under 10 you have problems if it's under 5 you don't stand a chance.

Simon.

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 11:41:55 pm »
It has been proved that hot water sometimes freezes faster than cold


So does that mean on the other occasions it's been proven that cold
freezes faster than hot?


 ;D




Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 11:43:03 pm »
Cut 'n' Paste from

http://library.thinkquest.org/C008537/cool/freeze/freeze.html

Any reasonable person would think that the hot pail would take longer than the cold pail to freeze. After all, the hot water needs extra time to reach the same temperature as the cold pail. When the hot pail finally does reach the same temperature as the cold pail initially was, the cold pail should already be frozen.

What Actually Happens

There are several things that help the hot pail freeze faster than the cold pail. Here are what is thought to be the most significant factors:

Layer of ice forms on the top of the cold water.
 
The hot water is more likely to be supercooled. This means that the hot water's temperature is more likely to cool to temperatures below zero degrees Celsius. In the cold non-supercooled water, ice crystals form and float to the top, forming a sheet of ice over the top of the water, creating an insulating layer between the cooler air and the water. This ice sheet also stops evaporation. In the hot water that has become supercooled (thus, no longer hot) the water, when it does freeze, freezes throughout, creating more or less of a slush before freezing solid.

Why is hot water more likely to be supercooled? Because hot water is less likely to contain tiny gas bubbles. Gas bubbles form from dissolved gasses as the water cools. When the hot water was heated, these dissolved gasses may have been driven out. In cold water, ice crystals use the tiny bubbles as starting points for formation (in physics, we call them nucleation points). But in the hot water, there are no bubbles, so there aren't as many starting points for the ice crystals.

Dissolved gasses also lower the freezing point. Since heated gas is less likely to contain dissolved gasses, it's more likely to freeze first.

 

Water in the hot water pail evaporates at a much faster rate than the cold water. This does two things.

First, the process of evaporation is endothermic, which means it takes energy for something to evaporate. As a molecule of water evaporates, it leaves the surface of the water and flies into the atmosphere. Thus, in simplified terms, the molecule converted heat energy into kinetic energy (energy of motion). Since the hot water evaporates quicker than the cold water, it loses heat energy quicker than the cold energy.

Second, since some of the hot water evaporates away, there is less water left to have to freeze.

The hot water pail will melt the surrounding snow. Later, as it begins to freeze, the snow around the pail will freeze back so that it more closely "touches" the pail. The cold water pail is then only sitting in fluffy airy snow, while the hot water pail is in a form fitting ice-crust. The ice-crust will obviously conduct the cold better that the airy snow.

Other factors, such as convection currents (the movement made as hot water rises while cool water sinks) may or may not play a role in this odd phenomenon.

NJWindowCleaning

  • Posts: 521
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 11:45:13 pm »
Did go out working unable to use wfp as frozen and tried squeegee but froze on glass so revert to mopping and polishing it may take a tad longer but least I was earning. It was just like the old days before the squeegee came.  ;D

Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2010, 11:48:45 pm »
Here's an experiment that shows hot water freezing quicker than cold water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjctACEmkbw


AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25390
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2010, 11:56:10 pm »
Roger - you couldn't work because you weren't prepared to work. You weren't prepared to do what was necessary.

So to excuse yourself you come up with "rot". Rot as in it's colder in Chepstow than in Bristol because of the "River" - that's what you said. You were wrong.

"Rot" as in "I can't work so you can't work - you must be liars or in a warmer place."
Well some of us worked and we weren't in a warmer place. You were wrong.

And then you become abusive.  ::)
It's a game of three halves!

G Griffin

  • Posts: 40745
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 11:56:35 pm »
There are many variables to consider eg. definition of frozen, the volumes of water etc. And how they are applicable to wfp and window cleaning.  
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Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 11:56:55 pm »
Yep, I've worked today, was a right pain, but as said, a strong to very nearly neat solution of good screenwash and you can just about cope.
I had one day last week where it was as windy as hell and I was doing some big offices, absolute swine of a day, had on my nice warm Jokapolar gloves = thank god! - and was fighting the pole for all I was worth, pole sections were sticking together and the whole pole was crusted with ice...didn't dare turn the water off (flat out flowrate) as the moment I did everything started to freeze up, which meant feeding up to 60m of hose, 35ft of pole hose and the top section plus brush of my SL2 into the van cab to thaw out...that was one tough sodding day...but I worked, ditto today [all trad] and yesterday too.

Of course you can darn well work, but it ain't no fun, hell, you can always use a sprayer and a microfibre or scrim if needs be, you'll be slower for sure but you will at least be earning.

After spending more than I like on insulation boards to protect both production unit and van I'm also going the L5 route, even if only to heat the water in my van tank rather than use it as an on demand type system.
A constant flow of reasonably warm water keeps hoses and brushes in working order, and although hot water will indeed freeze quicker than cold water, it will also warm the glass sufficiently to enable you to clean it.

I've not earned much so far this week, but like Tosh, that's because I've wimped out rather than toughed it out.

Now its time for 5 hours sleep, up at 5am to clean the monmouth wetherspoons...which means a 6.45am start... :'(



Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 11:59:51 pm »
Squeaks must think there's a lot of liars about this time of year!

G Griffin

  • Posts: 40745
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 12:01:11 am »
People who have been working have either been in warmer places or simply lying to try and impress.

It's not been possible here today, and I'll dismiss any claims it has been.

I think this says it all.
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geefree

  • Posts: 6180
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 12:01:53 am »
Yep, I've worked today, was a right pain, but as said, a strong to very nearly neat solution of good screenwash and you can just about cope.
I had one day last week where it was as windy as hell and I was doing some big offices, absolute swine of a day, had on my nice warm Jokapolar gloves = thank god! - and was fighting the pole for all I was worth, pole sections were sticking together and the whole pole was crusted with ice...didn't dare turn the water off (flat out flowrate) as the moment I did everything started to freeze up, which meant feeding up to 60m of hose, 35ft of pole hose and the top section plus brush of my SL2 into the van cab to thaw out...that was one tough sodding day...but I worked, ditto today [all trad] and yesterday too.

Of course you can darn well work, but it ain't no fun, hell, you can always use a sprayer and a microfibre or scrim if needs be, you'll be slower for sure but you will at least be earning.

After spending more than I like on insulation boards to protect both production unit and van I'm also going the L5 route, even if only to heat the water in my van tank rather than use it as an on demand type system.
A constant flow of reasonably warm water keeps hoses and brushes in working order, and although hot water will indeed freeze quicker than cold water, it will also warm the glass sufficiently to enable you to clean it.

I've not earned much so far this week, but like Tosh, that's because I've wimped out rather than toughed it out.

Now its time for 5 hours sleep, up at 5am to clean the monmouth wetherspoons...which means a 6.45am start... :'(



Ian

thats too long a post to read at this tie of night Ian

Tom White

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 12:06:41 am »

And then you become abusive.  ::)


Ah, only on the interweb though.  I tried phoning Squeaks twice and he wouldn't answer his phone.

I don't think it's fair calling someone a liar (and what was I lying about anyway?) on the interweb, but not being able to discuss the reasons why on the phone?

Maybe Squeaks is in real financial difficulties and that's why he's abusive?  I'll let it go, but it's not good behaviour.


AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25390
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 12:08:24 am »
Night night everyone! Got a doctor's surgery to do first thing. But my oilfilled rad is in the van; my IBC is insulated and has fed my insulated van tank and my bucket is ready with screenwash.

Night, night everybody - Sleep well!  ;)
It's a game of three halves!

SherwoodCleaningSe

  • Posts: 2368
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 12:12:59 am »
Regarding the hot and cold freezing. Some one should do some experiments with warm and cold. As I remember the experiments I've read about before are hot 70c cold 15c. I'm not suggesting anyone clean windows this time of year with 70c water more like 30c tops. I'm pretty sure that the cold would freeze first.

Proof is that today I went out with Luke warm water and had no problems at all. 2 others in the same area had cold water and had problems freezing, however these are not lab conditions and I wasn't wearing a White coat.

Simon.

mci services

Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 12:28:40 am »
Night night everyone! Got a doctor's surgery to do first thing. But my oilfilled rad is in the van; my IBC is insulated and has fed my insulated van tank and my bucket is ready with screenwash.

Night, night everybody - Sleep well!  ;)
;D just caught up with this

I have my own theory's on hot, warm and cold water, but whatever I believe that squeaky wimped out and I find it hilarious that not only on this post but the short ladder one everyone is lying and because its cold where he is it is impossible.

feck me move up here and work march to october and you will be fine squeaks.

agreed I have been idle and could have done more, I haven't earn't a penny in almost two weeks now, but my brother has via screenwash salt and allsorts to keep him going.

but he has a lot more shop work than me, I am struggling to drive anywhere never mind park to do residential, be grateful and if you can drive work simples really

Dave Anderson

  • Posts: 787
Re: May as well add to the woes...
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 06:50:30 am »
To a certain degree anyone who has been going for a year or more have only their selves to blame on a few of points....if their tank is froze or they have no money.

Vans/tanks,reels, ro systems freezing.
========================
Insulation, heating element, tube heaters,webasto heaters etc. Removing vulnerable parts over night.


Static units:
========
Insulation, heating element, tube heaters

Money:
=====
We cannot assume that work is possible every week..

Ok water freezing on glass or jets and poles freezing is a different matter. Getting to and from work as the road is covered in 20ft of snow is again out of your control.

High % screenwash dilutions and going trad to earn a few bob could be a solution for some.

Ok I know many will hate the fact that someone has the nerve to write this but there you go...

To my knowledge there have been at least 2 threads this year about preparing for the worst i.e this type of weather.

Don't shoot the messenger...

I have spent a significant amount of money on building a over insulated static cabinet, tube heaters, pulse technology stats...put money by every week for my slush fund...I would much rather not have to do any of this...and just spend the money on something else or just kept it saved.

Running a business is more than just cleaning the windows

The 6 p's >> P1ss Poor Preparation leads to a P1ss Poor Performance. Letting systems freeze in vans and in garages, sheds is a problem that should not happen...totally preventable

Focus your energies on that which you can change and for all that is beyond your control. Don't worry yourself into a early grave about it.

Why do I write this...all this freezing lark affected me big time 2007/8/9....



The more I know the less I know I know ...