[taylored]

area managers need trust with you and w/c need trust with a/m too meny small cogs dont work well

[kate1]

There would be no area managers in any form at all.

On our techinical side it would be a database,

We advertise ourselves as a database of companies that are prepared to undertake work on a national basis

For example

Hilton Hotels
Ibis
Preimer
Holiday Inns
BMW showrooms
Vauxhall

 Being a data company,it would be so easy for us to do.  But...... we would have to have people that wanted to subscribe...

[Paul Coleman]

There would be no area managers in any form at all.

On our techinical side it would be a database,

We advertise ourselves as a database of companies that are prepared to undertake work on a national basis

For example

Hilton Hotels
Ibis
Preimer
Holiday Inns
BMW showrooms
Vauxhall

You would only be doing what Peter Jones at Dragons Den is already doing, but we can set it up, being a data company,it would be so easy for us to do.  But...... we would have to have people that wanted to subscribe...



But my initial enquires are about how it would work for you guys really?

For me it might be about buying the rights to job enquiries, via your site, in certain postcode areas.  There are probably 5 or 6 areas that border where I am based that could be of interest.  By postcode area I mean the first part of the postcode e.g. AB12 (probably no such postcode but just using an example).
The next bit would be about exclusivity within an area.  To make it pay you might need to sell non-exclusive rights to an area so that you had a number of people subscribing OR charge a lot more for exclusive rights.  I already have a similar arrangement with Windowwashers.  I pay for a page in a particular town and some surrounding villages with a guarantee that no-one else on his site will cover that area.  It's not been spectacular but I do get the occasional enquiry.  The work I currently do that I got via the site is worth over £1k a year as I tend to keep most customers.  I think that's OK for £49 a year.
Not sure about how it might work with nationals though.  I do a little bit of subbing from larger companies and quite a bit from smaller companies.  In one case, I've never met the guy I sub from.

[Moderator David@stives]

Kate


1/ who would pitch for the jobs, and how would you get a national to deal with you if there wasnt 1 main contractor, with years of experience and expertise and with all the relevent accreditations.

2/ Which of Peter Jones's Businesses uses that model you describe ?

Dave

[kate1]

Hi

Im only basing this on Acacia, because we get calls "do we clean bins" they just hit on us because we come up, we could do the same with window cleaning.  I dont kinow really, just some initial thoughts to be honest.

[andyM]

The only fair way I can see a system like this working is by having to bid for the work.
There would need to be a website with a database of available jobs (contracts, one offs, regular commercial and domestic).
The work would need to be advertised on the site for a set period of time which would allow window cleaners to assess the work and place a bid or price that they would do the job for.
I presume the cheapest bid would gain the work.
However the website would require constant administration, and this would come at a cost.
So how would this cost be met?
A set administration fee added to the winning bid price which would be met by the customer?
 

[kate1]

Your absolutely right AJM

It could potentially work several ways

With regards to national companies, they would want a quote based on all sites.

The only other fair way to possibly do it would be postcodes, whoever is nearest.  I suppose you would all have to quote on what the particular building in that area of yours is like.

I was really rather thinking more along the lines of national companies as to one off jobs - that keeps it less complicated.   It just gives you more power as a group to quote on national jobs

We would set up a site (really just for national companies)

Just very initial thoughts at the moment

[kate1]

Also should have added on there, I could actively ring companies anyway as its my job, so I would be promoting the site via the phone also. 

[andyM]

Ok yes I agree that for this purpose it would be simpler to just involve National Contracts.
However it wouldn't take much more work to encompass a larger client base ie. domestic markets etc.

One of the problems I can forsee though with regard to a National Contract is this example.
Window Cleaner X in postcode sw18 has won the contract to service the chain of Tesco supermarkets in his postcode area. He won this contract in his area due to submitting the lowest price.
After 6 months of servicing his contract he has an accident and is unable to work for 2 months.
He is unable to sub this work out due to the low price of the work.
What would happen then?
A National Company would have the capacity to continue to meet their contractual obligations in this scenario. However a sole trader who has won it on a low price which is unattractive to another window cleaner may not.
This could have negative impact on the co-operative and its reputation, could it not?

 
 

[kate1]

See your point

But its national work would be based on a figure - were going to charge X, no need to do a low quote.  This is the price, and these stores are cleaned.

You dont quote low, you quote what the building is worth in that area.

We bundle the figures through and send it from the group.

Being price based would make it too complicated, it would have to be postcodes.  Nearest to the job, then upto you what you quote.  we would only present it as one figure for the whole contract.

With regards to sickness, we go to the next person nearer postcode. You would maybe have like an "on standby"

Its only ideas at the moment and Im sure there will many flaws and questions.

Im sure there would be lots of unforseen stuff.

I dont know how these national contractors work, but Im sure their bills are alot higher, what with marketing, vans, clothing, office space etc etc.

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

wrexham area im interested 

[kate1]

Also I think there would have to be a rule in place so not to step on anyones toes.  If somebody is doing a national contract already, it has to stay with them, even if there is somebody nearer.

Plus the side if I were actually on the phone, getting information, contract renewal dates etc.  We would be able to email/call them near renewal date.  So we would be pipelining information for you too.

It would be no good a low quote.  It would be have to done to a standard that you think somebody else would be on standby to take the job on should anyone unfortunately fall ill.

Thats why something like this cannot be based on price - it has to be based on networking facilities

[R W C™]

I own the domain name www.national-window-cleaners.co.uk if your interested in using it.....

[kate1]

Thanks RWC

I would have to ask everybody on here what they would be happy with for a site name

But thats very kind of you

[Gav Camm lammy 283]

you could use mine lol cccwindowcleaners.co.uk 

[WCE]

Kate


1/ who would pitch for the jobs, and how would you get a national to deal with you if there wasnt 1 main contractor, with years of experience and expertise and with all the relevent accreditations.

2/ Which of Peter Jones's Businesses uses that model you describe ?

Dave

Agree

Also I said it before abd i will say it again - it sounds fine in principle but in practice this idea wont work I am afraid. Too many ifs and buts in the business model.

See your point

But its national work would be based on a figure - were going to charge X, no need to do a low quote.  This is the price, and these stores are cleaned.

You dont quote low, you quote what the building is worth in that area.

We bundle the figures through and send it from the group.

Being price based would make it too complicated, it would have to be postcodes.  Nearest to the job, then upto you what you quote.  we would only present it as one figure for the whole contract.

With regards to sickness, we go to the next person nearer postcode. You would maybe have like an "on standby"

Its only ideas at the moment and Im sure there will many flaws and questions.

Im sure there would be lots of unforseen stuff.

I dont know how these national contractors work, but Im sure their bills are alot higher, what with marketing, vans, clothing, office space etc etc.

See your point

But its national work would be based on a figure - were going to charge X, no need to do a low quote.  This is the price, and these stores are cleaned.

You dont quote low, you quote what the building is worth in that area.

Then how the hell do hope to compete with the existing contractors?  Price is one of the main things in bidding for these jobs, as Dave touched on the companies ability, resources to carry out a contract and relevent experience are all other factors.

I dont know how these national contractors work, but Im sure their bills are alot higher, what with marketing, vans, clothing, office space etc etc.

There is another problem - You don't actually know how it works you are only guessing. I suggest you do (a) some market research (b) Research how these nationals operate and then reassess your idea. Also consider the practicalities of what you are suggesting then come up with a decent business plan if you really think the idea is a goer. Then and only then if it all checks out and you are confident that you have been through the idea with a fine tooth comb, understand how the opposition operate, the potential pitfuls etc put the plan into action. I guess I am saying it is no good saying that you don't know or are not sure you need to have those answers especially if you want to deal with national chains etc      

[kate1]

WCE

Like I have said, its ONLY an idea, thats all, nothing more.

The only thing im doing here is asking for initial interest, absolutely nothing more than that.  If theres no interest, theres no point in moving anything forward or looking any deeper

Im in research for a job, so its highly unlikely that I would even consider entering into anything whatsoever without looking into it.

All Im doing is asking what people think. 

IF it were to go any further, then would come health and safety issues and all the relevant documentation and qualifications.

As far as it wont work - im afraid it seems as its already happening

http://www.nationalwindowcleaning.co.uk/

[WCE]

WCE

Like I have said, its ONLY an idea, thats all, nothing more.

The only thing im doing here is asking for initial interest, absolutely nothing more than that.  If theres no interest, theres no point in moving anything forward or looking any deeper

Im in research for a job, so its highly unlikely that I would even consider entering into anything whatsoever without looking into it.

All Im doing is asking what people think. 

IF it were to go any further, then would come health and safety issues and all the relevant documentation and qualifications.

As far as it wont work - im afraid it seems as its already happening

http://www.nationalwindowcleaning.co.uk/

Laddersfree don't operate the model you suggest though. I know Justin and the team very well. They charge a membership fee for a start. They also keep hold of the work they have got and tell you the prices - They certainly don't hold out for the best prices. More importantly they also have full time office staff to take care of the admin side and secure the contracts in the first place. They don't do the national chains you describe for a reason, there work tends to target smaller chains and also there not really that keen on one oofs It is basically run as a subcontract business with a members directory and not really a cooperative as you have suggested.  Trust me I know them VERY well and am aware of how they run their business and how they do it, the pitfuls and advantages of their operation and the way they operate is nothing like you suggest.  I am not trying to offend you or put you down just talking from experience. The  idea sounds fine in principle but there are too many unanswered questions about putting it into practice and elements that using the model suggested would take things outside of your control. It only takes one bad apple. If you think you can get it to work then I wish you the best of luck but my experience tells me there is a lot of work needed in the model if you are to be successful and in this moment in time I see more pitfuls than anything else.   

Pete