[Moderator David@stives]

newsnight comments page.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_3990000/newsid_3993900/3993909.stm

[poleman]

Hi Poleman

I agree that different view points are valid but to say in the future a new H & S statement will appear is a bit like accepting a post dated cheque.

It may or may not be valid. There's no way of knowing from the present.

First of all why don't you say how you know this, or what it's content will be and how it may affect window cleaners who use ladders before making a statement.

Secondly what is the source of your information?

Thirdly, apart from the fact that some statement will at sometime appear about using ladders anyway, why are you privy to this information and how did you come to know it as a fact?

Sorry but I don't mean to question by why the secrecy?

Also, if you do know something isn't it best to share it as forewarned is always best.

Cheers

Ross

Ross,

There was a meeting between the H&SE & Fed, which is well know by many window cleaners, it seems you did not know.
Andy

[rosskesava]

Hi Philip

Very interesting. You make some really valid points. I suppose sometimes to have a vested interest can be a good thing.

Still, the bird poo point remains but I do think that the public will eventually have to accept that somethings will have to be.

In the end, I think that ladders will be a thing of the past as far as professional people are concerned.

The only tinge of doubt I have is that there are as yet, no real facts regarding injuries from using WFP.

Someone I know near where I live seriously tore a muscle in his back and won't work again. He done that injury using WFP and as is the case with the self employed, injuries and their recording is dependant on what is said at the hospital.

A sudden gust of wind blew the pole sideways and to try and stop it potentially going through or hitting a glass roof over a cafe he done his back in.

He is now 40 years old and has been told that by the time he is 60, that injury will be disabling and that in turn could, just could, affect his life expectancy due to the mechanical action of having to breathe to excercise the lungs.

The point I am making is that with WFP there could be hidden facts that as yet are not apparent because it is so new and to quote simply how many fall from ladders and those statistics could be misleading.

At least my friend didn't die.

Also, could more deaths be prevented by falls from ladders by a more serious approach and by viewing it simply not as just 'going up a ladder to clean afew windows' but rather as something that requires thought at all times.

I am a quailified absailing instructor and imagine the statistics if I had a slack approach?

When rock climbing, absailing down is veiwed as the last resort from a safety angle yet people now absail for fun and charity.

Also, an intersting statistic is that most deaths occur under (I think - I don't have the bit of paper in front of me) 2 metres. If not then it's 3 metres. One of the 2 but anyway, a H & S study (and I can provide the paper on it) stated that most feel safe at relivately low hieghts and so were less carefull.

Is there that danger with WFP that most think they cannot fall so they become slack in how they use their bodies and suffer injuries as a result so as you end up with more serious and less serious injuries but less deaths? The reason I write that is the using of WFP is not condusive to healthy posture while working and of that, there is no doubt just as in supermarkets the checkout people and how they work is a time bomb in terms of RSI.

I can't escape the fact that there can only be less deaths from WFP and that cannot be disputed.

Hi Poleman

There was a meeting between the H&SE & Fed, which is well know by many window cleaners, it seems you did not know.

Andy

What was said? Thanks.

Cheers

[rosskesava]

Hi david@ St-Ives

I am interested to know also how you record (I didn't know you could) from the interent.

All I know is the on and off thing I have to use to turn my pc on and off.

I still can't get over how I have to click on 'start' to turn the thing off.

Cheers

[poleman]

Its was a closed meeting and only they know, but is due out shortly.

Andy

[Ian Rochester]

I've just re-watched the newsnight programme from last night and it is obvious that Andrew Lee certainly puts across his personal point that his business is not for turning to WFP.

I think it is wrong that Andrew made this point whilst wearing his NFMW&GC hat and the fed now need to clarify to all its members if that is there combined opinions and the standing of the fed as a whole.  If it is then all pole users should be looking at a different federation that has a more positive view of the use of WFP.

It was also obvious that the HSE are unwilling to say that ladders cannot be used, providing you carry out an assessment of alternatives.  That assessment will now come to the conclusion that:

"There was "impacted dirt" on the window that could not be removed by any other means so I had to use my ladders to get the necessary close up abrasive action"


Customers are always sceptical about new technology and any that have seen this programme and get their windows cleaned using a pole will now be examining their windows more closely, spotting and complaining about any "impacted dirt" that has not been removed and possibly going back to using someone that goes up a set of ladders, because contrary to what we have been trying to tell them all this time, "ladders can be used, it said so on the telly!!"

ps: we use both WFP and ladders and I am currently in the process of sourcing and buying a second 650ltr van  mount system for a significant capital outlay

[jsm]

I'm selling all my gear - and getting a fleet of bikes with guys loaded up with 6 ft points    this is the way it's going to go - what with petrol going through the roof  .....

I can get bird muck off - but then I'm a PRO  ;)LOL  

[Ian Rochester]

JSM,

I've got a bike hire business as a side line and we're changing all our bikes at the end of this season, give me a call I'll do you a good deal!!!  You'll have to source the tin buckets yourself

[tom_currie]

ross sorry to hear about theinjury to man but it only goes to highlight h&s risk asses & method statement.
on risk asses /method if one man operation he can not get risk down as far as business with two men .
poles do not make you safe once poles go to over 30 ft i believe it to be 2 man job and would right up as so

[tom_currie]

and in most cases right up jobs as 2 man even for lower work as best to have man watching back and as lookout for general public and keeping eye on hose and feeding it to pole man this reduces risk

[thewindowcleaner1]

Does anyone know how to save the film from the newsnight website

The only way that I know is if you are using windows xp,
if you are then what I do is connect the computer to the tv and chang the out put to the tv so that the tv becomes the monitor then put a video or dv recorder between the two,
Can't tell you what buttons to press at the moment as I can't find them

I used to put the curser over the desk top and press the right btn on the mouse and select propeties and go from there, I think

[24-7 S C Services]

I am proposing that Andrew Lee be forced to resign from the Fed for his comments. He has damaged many window cleaners business and will cost alot of people including myself a lot of money. He has suggested that you can't remove bird muck from windows!!! What a stupid, ignorant statement.
 
He should take off that shirt and tie, roll up his sleeves and try using the equipment for himself. Those who bother to learn the correct technique have no trouble removing bird muck. And, if you can't see the window, may I suggest a pair of glasses?
 
The Fed should not forget that they are supposed to represent ALL window cleaners. Perhaps it is because people will buy less of their squeegies and scrims in future that they have decided to mis-represent water-fed poles. Last time I checked they weren't selling water-fed systems.
 

Well said Steve,

My main area is WFP, however, we do traditional also. I am also a member of the FED, but as time goes on, I wonder why.

The comment about bird muck is bang out of order. I have removed more of this with a wfp than I have had hot dinners. Simply wet the muck, clean the next window, go back and clean the muck and it is gone.

Also with reference to stickers!! What type of stickers??? Because the stickers you get on new windows only need to be soaked for a couple of mins, then they simply brush off. The glue reacts to the water and disperses.

I have never had any complaints from any of my customers, in fact I always receive praise on how clean their windows are and how amazed they are that they stay clean longer than the traditional clean.

I see the FED must also condone inappropriate scraping of windows!!! The clip of the window cleaner scarping the top left corner of the window, will remove whatever was on it, but his up and down technique constantly on the window would lead to scratches

Well despite everything, my poles are my investment for the safety of me and my staff.

Andrew

[Solo Cleaning]

Just to let you know that i am currently recording the website repeat of the show.
I will try and get a chance to edit it so it is just the spot on WFP,s.

I am not sure if i can post it here.

The file size maybe 5 to 19 MBs. Do any of you use bit torrent as i will be able to create a torrent file later which you can dowload.

Anyhow will post back later to let you know how things are going.

PS. Ladder angle seems okay to me ( I do use wfp aswell as trad) seems secure

Lee

[Justin Ruggles]

The Interview was right when he told Andrew " Your Talking Sh-it"

What a thing to say that bird muck cant be removed with a WFP, someone needs to tell him that you can remove it and you can also place a scraper on the end of a pole as well.

Soon as i lose a large contract and get told due to Andrew Lee and the Fed I will seek lose of earnings through the court, I would urge you to do the same.

God knows what the suppliers are thinking and the amount of damage he has done them with all the window cleaners watching the show last night.

Feel abit sorry for the ones that are memebers and use a WFP he is laughing at you lot.

JUstin

[windows_chepstow]

The Interview was right when he told Andrew " Your Talking Sh-it"

What a thing to say that bird muck cant be removed with a WFP, someone needs to tell him that you can remove it and you can also place a scraper on the end of a pole as well.

In Andrew Lee's defence, he also mentioned that paint and putty are impossible to remove with a WFP and that the distance from the WFP operator to the window meant that it was difficult or impossible to see what dirt was left on the window.

I think Andrew Lee's comments were used by the BBC to provide 'balance' to what could've been an extremely pro WFP news item.  Obviously 'pro WFP' is not every window cleaner's opinion; therefore the news clip required the opposing point of view.

What I didn't like was the 'urine extracting' reporter at BWCA going up the stairs and saying in hushed tones, '...and up here is where we learn about ... the theory of window cleaning'. 

He was obviously taking the 'Mick'.

Anyway, I'm considering drafting a letter to all local businesses along the lines of:

"As recently reported on BBC Newnight, WFP's cannot clean windows as good as old fashioned traditional methods; therefore if you want your windows cleaned properly; call us on ...."

What do you reckon?

[Justin Ruggles]

Go for it.

Justin

[Moderator David@stives]

as recently reported on newsnight "you should only use ladders when all other options have been considered first "

it dont bother me ,but everyone can pick out a snipet and twist it to there advantage .i think you have to watch it as a whole.

the reporter mentioned sh-it ,he thought he was being funny .at the expense of something serious. It was not mentioned in the reply.

[poleman]

In Andrew Lee's defence, he also mentioned that paint and putty are impossible to remove with a WFP and that the distance from the WFP operator to the window meant that it was difficult or impossible to see what dirt was left on the window.

I have to agree, to a point, yes, however I own a power pole which has a attment with a window scraper, which can easly do first floor, but what he said he is basing his whole point on not using a safer way, because of stickers ie: when most window cleaners dont come across in there day to day normal window cleaning.

Andy   

[Moderator David@stives]

he also stated that applied to the most difficult to rech windows.
not every window

[poleman]

You can not do a builders cleans with a WFP that we know, OK if this agrument is stopping our indusrty being, then A/ hand this over to the window fitters or B/ say right ladders have to be used but with a stabliser top and bottom, THEN we can move forward in a safe manner as a indusrty as a whole.

Andy