[daniel b]

Newsnight BBC2 10.30 Workin at height Directive,should be interetin.

Daniel

[rosskesava]

It may be informative but WAHD is never interesting.

I think I've read more about WAHD than anything else this year.

It's a cure for insomnia but I'll be watching all the same.

Yawn......

[Moderator David@stives]

where did you get the info from.
i am sat in the classroom at the back right wearing a white tee shirt with blue writing in the front.

[daniel b]

what i should of said is it should be interestin if i dont fall asleep,which i prob will.

[matt]

i watched max and paddy

far more entertaining

when the pig lets rip in the van, pure class

[daniel b]

HOW DARE YOU!

[simbag]

Its on now!!

[gaza]

ANDREW LEE from nfwc buries his head in the sand advert for ionics Icould have done better with my video camara

GAZA

[daniel b]

What a load of tripe a.

Dan

[Thecleanerservice]

The ladders are back on the roof rack. 
Pj

[rosskesava]

I just watched it.

What a pile of rubbish.

But ..... the bloke from the H & S answered the question acurately, and it was refreshing to hear, that if ladders are the best way to do the job, then that's perfectly ok in terms of w/c's provided they've looked at alternatives.

And before anyone asks, we use both WFP and trad methods.

I don't want to start a whole new debate about 'ladders mean death' or anything but there was no qualification about some statements they made. As in 'this study by x,y & z has showed' etc. It's always best to know where quoted facts come from and how they were compiled and most importantly, who compiled them.

I see Ionics got their plug in also.

They used old film stuff from the fifties or what ever. What was the point of that? To show w/c's as basically stupid?

All in all, nothing new.

Cheers

[Thecleanerservice]

Well summed up Ross.  Let tht be the end of it....for now.
Pj

[poleman]

What a load of crap, the H&S Officer of the Fed whole point about not using a safer way off cleaning was because bird crap...what a lot of crap.
 
Andy
PS calls him self a H&S officer dont think so. 

[Philip Hanson]

I am disappointed, but not entirely surprised.
 
To see Andrew Lee defending the use of ladders (while his employees behind him were using them at the wrong angle) is something I've come to expect.
 
I have also come to expect that certain committee members who live in c0ckermouth and employ 18 window cleaners that use ladders will be unlikely to put forward the use of water-fed poles for the simple reason that then they themselves would have to buy more systems.
 
I also noticed he mentioned that ladders could be used by window cleaners who were 60 years old and "only had a few years to go", and shouldnt have to bother with pole systems.  Out of interest, does anyone else think that argument was the most ridiculous thing they've ever heard?
 
I know from personal experience that bird poo can easily be removed with WFP, so in my opinion it was misleading to state that it could not.
 
However, no matter what, there's no such thing as bad publicity and at very least this news item will bring the new WAH regs and WFP to the attention of the general public, and that's got to be a good thing.
 
-Philip
 
PS And darned George Formby in the background AGAIN!!

PPS Steve K - email

[windows_chepstow]

Well summed up Ross.  Let tht be the end of it....for now.
Pj

No, PJ, I think this is just the begining.  I watched newsnight with trepidation and actually taped the programme. 

From what I can gather the following occured:

BWCA said it was the end of ladder use.  (Buy an Ionics system was the subliminal message that even Wor Lass received - and I've always been a champion of Craig Mawlam).

The Fed said ladders were best (the only positive thing I know they've done - for ladder users).



The head of health and safety said 'ladders are okay, as long as you consider the alternatives'.

So, ladders are okay!  I'll re-watch and type a transcipt of what the head honcho of health and safety said tomorrow, when my 'beer' has worn off and when Wor Lass doesn't mind me going on the 'tinternet.

To Steve Kennedy;

Andrew Lee - apart from bird poo -  also mentioned paint and other substances.  I can understand why you're cross, but to be honest, I was worried that Newsnight would say ladders are banned!  Thankfully, the head of health and safety said they were okay, or at least Newsnight said they were okay.  I'll put a transcript here tomorrow.  

I do agree with your statement though, but keep an open mind.  Andrew Lee's comments might have been edited in such a way to show him to be a one-sided pro-ladder user.

[rosskesava]

Hi Poleman

The H & S bloke was stating what the law actually is.

The rest was edited bits designed to show what the good old tv does best - an angle of opinion purely for gains (or not) of viewing figures.

I went next door to watch it.

Boy oh boy am I glad I don't own a TV and havn't for years. If you don't watch TV for years you see right through it and wonder why people watch it with such faith that 'opinion' is the truth or factual.

Hi Philip

Sorry to write this......

Do you have a vested interest in promoting WFP?

The ladder was at the wrong angle but the legs were in grass. I think they would have been very carefull, being under scrutiny to get exact advise, on what was the best place to put the ladder. Added to which the companies own H & S wouldn't allowed it.

Also, bird poo can be removed with wfp if you can see it. I live on the coast and the seagulls do loads of them. What looks ok at ground level can be misleading when you look from close up. Especially 2 or 3 floors up and I don't mean the big dollops but the ones that the rain has nearly removed. Or do WFP's have zoom eyes like Steve Austin?

As for that rotten sickening song .....

And the pathetic comment about self cleaning glass.........

Also, I do think that WFP is the way forward without a doubt.

Tosh - I agree.

[poleman]

Think you will find in due time a NEW statment is coming out, by H&SE.

Andy

[rosskesava]

Hi Poleman

I agree that different view points are valid but to say in the future a new H & S statement will appear is a bit like accepting a post dated cheque.

It may or may not be valid. There's no way of knowing from the present.

First of all why don't you say how you know this, or what it's content will be and how it may affect window cleaners who use ladders before making a statement.

Secondly what is the source of your information?

Thirdly, apart from the fact that some statement will at sometime appear about using ladders anyway, why are you privy to this information and how did you come to know it as a fact?

Sorry but I don't mean to question by why the secrecy?

Also, if you do know something isn't it best to share it as forewarned is always best.

Cheers

Ross

[Philip Hanson]

Ross, no need to be sorry.   I am open to all debate.

Do you have a vested interest in promoting WFP?

I don't believe you were a member of CIU when I first wrote to the Federation (an open letter) questioning why they had not discussed the new European Directive despite it being the most important piece of legislation affecting window cleaners for at least 20 years.  And also questioning why, despite the revolution that was unfolding before their eyes, they had not discussed the use of Pole systems.  Instead they chose to use "Window Talk" to print stories about foxes eating cakes and even re-print articles from 25 years ago.

Anyway, it caused something of a storm at the time, you can read it here:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2859.0

Because it seemed that the Fed were simply not interested in what its members thought, I decided to do something about it myself.  The plain fact was, that other than these forums that we now have (which I think are a real breath of fresh air for window cleaning) there was no definitive source of information.  Window cleaners were crying out for that.

I'll be honest with you, I believe that WFP is not only the way forward for window cleaners, but that it is the NOW for window cleaners too.  I have consistently held this belief despite the barrage of criticism I have been subjected to because of it.  I believe that a forward thinking window cleaner and a responsible editor MUST be seen to be promoting the best practice, and I don't care what anyone thinks, WFP is clearly best practice for almost all window cleaning situations.  It is precicely because the Fed have not promoted best practice that they are now looking out-dated and at odds with the industry.

The interest I have in promoting WFP is this:  I will never have to think of a window cleaner having died as a result of a fall from height and think to myself "Could I have helped to prevent that?"  The interest I have is that if I did not promote a method that was clearly the safest and becomming widely accepted, then I would have no credibility at all.  I accept ads from WFP companies and hand tool suppliers just the same as the fed do, but I promote the use of WFP where possible simply because it is, in my opinion, the best way of working for window cleaners, and I'll happily defend that position to anyone.

think they would have been very carefull, being under scrutiny to get exact advise, on what was the best place to put the ladder. Added to which the companies own H & S wouldn't allowed it.

Advice from who?  Those were Andrew Lee's employees - he IS the H&S officer of the Fed, and the ladder WAS at the incorrect angle (which is 75 degrees from the vertical).

I can understand that it would be difficult to believe, but yes you DID see the Fed's H&S officer on National TV with his employees breaking the H&S regs by not using the ladder at the correct angle.

-Philip

[Moderator David@stives]

Does anyone know how to save the film from the newsnight website