[robert meldrum]

2cleanright

Woolsafe have been in existence for TWENTY YEARS and have IMO achieved ZERO in terms of improving the status of the industry.
Anyone who imagines WEARING BADGES or advertising THEY ARE MEMBERS OF ASSOCIATIONS gives them greater credibilty or improves the status of the industry are mistaken.
The people who give a RELIABLE service at REASONABLE cost and are still there the following year and beyond do more for the industry than organisations which only exist to make money but like to give the impression they are the industries " police " or the public's friend.
Years ago I used and advertised the fact that I used woolsafe products but no one gave a monkey's. People just want CLEAN and if you offer them what they perceive as quality and value they will come back for more and refer you to others.
That's how you get your phone ringing every week even 7 years after you last advertised.

[Bob Robertson]

Woolsafe do much more work with carpet manufacturers, retailers and cleaning product manufacturers than voluntary bodies like the NCCA could ever hope to do. As professional carpet cleaners we should do all we can to support their efforts in raising standards within the industry.

There are a huge number of products in the Vanish and 1001 ranges, to name just a few, and only the ones which pass the stringent testing carry ther woolsafe mark - and these may not be perfect - many of the products I use every day will cause damage if not used in accordance with the manufacturers intructions, and how many consumers do you know who even bother to read instrucions, let alone follow them?

Bob- you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. If you can join a respected international organisation, use their logos and "clout" with manufacturers, retailers consumers and insurance companies to gain extra work, possibly at a higher value because of your perceived expertise, then why dont you? Or is it just that you arent professional enough in your approach to gain this type of work? Or maybe you think you might fail the exam?

Dont knock it till youve tried it. I get back far more than the cost of training and/ or membership each year.

First, If your going to have a pop at me about passing exams, check your spelling first. :

I have passed my NCCA exam and I'm also a trained LTT leather technician. I also do work for some very large companies. If you had took the time to look at my website you would have found this out before making a stupid comment. I have every right to question the woolsafe organisation as they are on here touting for members. It is my cash they are after and If I dont agree with products they endorse, then that is also my choice and many others also feel the same.

I have explained my reason for not joining in my first post to which you may have missed so I wont explain it again.

P.S And you are? I have googled your company and there isn't much to read about it.

Bob

[Simon Gerrard]

I did a job yesterday for a customer who has a problem dog. Last time it had a Diarrhoea attack in the dining room (beige wool carpet) but we got the stain out. This time it was in the lounge but instead of leaving it for us to deal with she used the dreaded vanish. End result - can't get the stains out and the carpet is now ruined.
If Vanish is a Woolsafe approved product that's just crazy as it is the number reason why we can't get perfectly ordinary stains out of carpets.

Simon

[james roffey]

Is it a coincedance that our day to day experiences of these products are very negative, of course not, and woolsafe are not going to remove these  products just because of the problems we see it causing they make a lot of money endorsing them and use "user error" as a get out, someone on here said something like "i have loads of stuff on my van that could cause these problems on carpet" but this product is in my opinion misleading, because the woolsafe endorsement on the side of that bottle implies it's"woolsafe" the phrase alone would i think suggest this cant possible damage my lovely wool carpet it's been tested by "woolsafe"   

       "Safe"  the dictionary definition  FREE FROM RISK, INVOLVING NO RISK  

[The WoolSafe Organisation]

Hello everyone!
Dr Agnes Zsednai, Technical Director of WoolSafe here (not Steve).

I looked through the postings last night and will address some issues regarding testing and fees, though Bob has already found and referred to the similar conversation we had about 2 years ago.

Our latest UK licensee is CleanSmart Limited, hardly a big/large volume seller and they still could afford to have 3 of their chemicals tested and approved. Amongst the ~70 chemical licensees, there are all types represented, and some like Chemspec, Vax and Sebo have been with us right from the start of the programme in 1991, never complaining about excessive pricing or dodgy practices.

As said before, all our test methods are the result of extensive research started by scientists at Wools of New Zealand; and most are international standards, and no one has come up with any better yet. In fact, the biggest association for carpet mills and retailers in America, the Carpet and Rug Institute has started their own chemical testing programme a few years ago based on our work.

Re: New Look Clean:
The point of testing and setting requirements is to influence manufacturers to make better products. If they take notice and produce products that pass the tests that means that product will be safe, so we achieved our objective. I cannot see anything laughable or out of order here. We are not talking about just one bottle being tweaked to pass, but the whole production improved – that is also the point of the annual retest.

Yes, we are a commercial organisation, we operate as one and charge a fair price for our work, just like you do. The WoolSafe Marks are registered certification marks; everything about them is open and legal, governed by the Trade Marks Act 1994. We do not waste the money we collect, the profit is spent on advertising and promoting our members, their services and the approved products; and most of all on promoting proper carpet care, which includes recommending professional cleaning.

However, as Steve has said, the DIY market is a fact of life, there will always be people making sweeping assumptions without investigating the facts and deem professional cleaning too expensive.

Unfortunately, almost all DIY products, including non WoolSafe ones have the words “safe for all fibres including wool” printed on them. There is nothing we can do about it (you might want to try Trading Standards…), but at least we can identify and mark those which are safe if used correctly. Incidentally, have any of you tried out these products? Do they cause the same effects you see on the customers’ carpet when used by you?

As well as trying, I also tested them chemically, and I am positive the 1001 range does not have any bleach in it. Vanish Oxi (as the name suggests) has a small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide in it, just like some of the professional spotters you use. Peroxide in high concentration is used as bleach, but at this level it was found safe and on the carpet it will decompose leaving only water behind. We did extensive field testing with the help of some carpet mills on a range of wool/blend carpet before approving it the first time in consumer products, and found no cause for concern. But we did reject some newer versions where the peroxide was too high – even though the supplier would have paid us good money for the approval!
I also need to repeat Steve’s point: not all Vanish is approved, and generally spotters in cans tend to be less safe than the ones in spray bottles (due to their chemistry).

If any of you have a favourite consumer product, which will take out all the stains the currently approved ones cannot, and does not cause any damage to the carpets, please let us know about it. I will approach its manufacturer and will test the product!

[Neil Williams]

I don't think any of us on here are disputing that your tests are extremely in-depth.
BUT that doesn't take away from the fact that we (the guys on the ground) are forever seeing the results of what happens when so called Woolsafe' products are used by people who are allowed to buy this product from supermarkets.
Yesterday I did 2 quotes and both had the bleached out marks from where Mrs Customer had used 1001 and vanish. Flip I even had a surgical doctor last week who had managed to muller his carpet in an attempt to get a smoothy out, and this from a doctor who will have studied chemistry to some degree and should have been a bit more with it compared to your average housewife.

So I think you're missing the point about what you pass as safe and what we see as clearly not safe.

[clinton]

As the saying goes trust me am a doctor

[james roffey]

I use a microsplitter spotter from solutions uk that "is" safe on wool although has no "woolsafe" certificate and is miles better that that rubbish you sponser, and like others on here see on a regular basis that tell tale bleaching on carpets strange how it's always where a stain is : but what i will do is investigate more thoroughly and get hold of the culprit, but i have got so used to customers saying oh i used 1001 or vanish

I  think those products are very very poor at removing stains, if they were any good we would be using them,  but millions is thrown into telling the public they are great, and we are left explaining why we cant get a stain out that has been made permanent or has bleached the carpet.

[clinton]

Hit the nail on the head james.

In my twenty years of c cleaning i have never been asked if i am woolsafe.. :

[james roffey]

In my 1 year as a carpet cleaner i have also never been asked if i am woolsafe.

But i have seen dozens of bleached carpets, and customers showing the obligatory "pink bottle"

[CleanerCarpets]

Agnes - i think you can see the strength of feeling from cleaners on this, until these products are removed from your endorsed range the simple fact is you will put off people joining by the hundreds or maybe more

Your response is long but i still cant see it carries weight - can i ask have you ever used these products on YOUR carpet, left it a year and then extracted it with hot water extraction to see all the foam still coming out of the carpet? We see that day after day after day and until you recognise that, you have no argument on this

[Bob Robertson]

Hello everyone!

Dr Agnes Zsednai, Technical Director of WoolSafe here (not Steve).

 

I looked through the postings last night and will address some issues regarding testing and fees, though Bob has already found and referred to the similar conversation we had about 2 years ago.

 

Our latest UK licensee is CleanSmart Limited, hardly a big/large volume seller and they still could afford to have 3 of their chemicals tested and approved. Amongst the ~70 chemical licensees, there are all types represented, and some like Chemspec, Vax and Sebo have been with us right from the start of the programme in 1991, never complaining about excessive pricing or dodgy practices.

 

As said before, all our test methods are the result of extensive research started by scientists at Wools of New Zealand; and most are international standards, and no one has come up with any better yet. In fact, the biggest association for carpet mills and retailers in America, the Carpet and Rug Institute has started their own chemical testing programme a few years ago based on our work.

 

Re: New Look Clean:

The point of testing and setting requirements is to influence manufacturers to make better products. If they take notice and produce products that pass the tests that means that product will be safe, so we achieved our objective. I cannot see anything laughable or out of order here. We are not talking about just one bottle being tweaked to pass, but the whole production improved – that is also the point of the annual retest.

 

Yes, we are a commercial organisation, we operate as one and charge a fair price for our work, just like you do. The WoolSafe Marks are registered certification marks; everything about them is open and legal, governed by the Trade Marks Act 1994. We do not waste the money we collect, the profit is spent on advertising and promoting our members, their services and the approved products; and most of all on promoting proper carpet care, which includes recommending professional cleaning.

 

However, as Steve has said, the DIY market is a fact of life, there will always be people making sweeping assumptions without investigating the facts and deem professional cleaning too expensive.

 

Unfortunately, almost all DIY products, including non WoolSafe ones have the words “safe for all fibres including wool” printed on them. There is nothing we can do about it (you might want to try Trading Standards…), but at least we can identify and mark those which are safe if used correctly. Incidentally, have any of you tried out these products? Do they cause the same effects you see on the customers’ carpet when used by you?

 

As well as trying, I also tested them chemically, and I am positive the 1001 range does not have any bleach in it. Vanish Oxi (as the name suggests) has a small amount of Hydrogen Peroxide in it, just like some of the professional spotters you use. Peroxide in high concentration is used as bleach, but at this level it was found safe and on the carpet it will decompose leaving only water behind. We did extensive field testing with the help of some carpet mills on a range of wool/blend carpet before approving it the first time in consumer products, and found no cause for concern. But we did reject some newer versions where the peroxide was too high – even though the supplier would have paid us good money for the approval!

I also need to repeat Steve’s point: not all Vanish is approved, and generally spotters in cans tend to be less safe than the ones in spray bottles (due to their chemistry).

 

If any of you have a favourite consumer product, which will take out all the stains the currently approved ones cannot, and does not cause any damage to the carpets, please let us know about it. I will approach its manufacturer and will test the product!


 

 

 

Hi Dr Zsednai

It is this statement "if used correctly" that comes across as a get out clause. Are you saying that, if they are used incorrectly the product could damage wool carpets . If there was any doubt about a product then it should not be passed as woolsafe. People who purchase these products are putting faith in your approval, only to find out at their own expense that it has now ruined their carpet.
 
However, it would be interesting to see how many carpet cleaners use these products in their spotting kits. Do approved woolsafe operators use them?
 

Bob

[james roffey]

I have just been on the 1001 site i can see where i have been going wrong no need for solvents guys on nail varnish, emulsion paint 1001 can do it all.

It was said about not following the instructions for the product well the standard product is blotted on left to dry and vacuumed up, not exactly rocket science is it :.

 what are they missing out that could cause the damage we see on a regular basis.

[Ken Wainwright]

Wow

What a long thread to welcome me back.

I'll be honest and say first off that I got bored reading similar posts over and over, so I skipped quite a few.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mike Halliday that consumers always far too much product. For a spot the size of a finger nail they'll typically use enough product to clean a sqaure metre!

I personally disagree with many user instructions on the labels of consumer spotters and had a conversation not too long ago with, I think, Paul Bakker, about the way I advise my customers to use spotters. He said he'd look into it when time allows.

As for Woolsafe training, I did mine with Julie Roberts of Chemspec and it was a revellation and totally changed my outlook on cleaning all fibre types.  As I've said before, if I was King for a day, I'd make it compulsory for all carpet cleaners to complete the Woolsafe Training Course.  It really is that good.

Some posts here seem to object with Woolsafe being a commercial organisation. PROFIT is not a four letter word and I can't see anything wrong with that. All of us are commercial operations at various levels.

Like trade associations and professional bodies in most industries and trades, the public do not know of their existance. But membership is something we can use in our own marketing and sales pitch to enforce our professionalism.

When I joined the NCCA, I sent out letters to all of the UK carpet mills letting them know of my newly achieved mambership and status.  They weren't interested. When I joined Woolsafe, I had five positive replies, telling me that I would be added to their database of approved companies.  I have had several jobs from three of them.

The high end retailers in my area use my services, sometimes trouble shooting for soil related problems on new installations, with the charges being passed on to the suppliers. Woolsafe Certification is an important part of this relationship as, although I am trusted and valued by the retailer,some manufaturers and suppliers don't know me from Adam.

I've had a few referals (not many) from both Woolsafe office and website.  When I pull my finger out and gather the information requested, Woolsafe will be advertising MY services directly with some quality retailers.  The cost to me? Zilch

As with trade association membership, I've used Woolsafe to my advantage. I've much, much more than recovered my annual fee.  As with most things in life, you need to make membership work for you. Sit back and do nothing, then you'll get..........nothing

Safe and happy cleaning
The Ken

[CleanerCarpets]

good reply Ken and very valid points

you mention most consumers wont know about the Associations unless we tell them and make them work for us - absolutely right and i mentioned that before. However, this also means that these consumers also wont be aware that these products are endorsed by Woolsafe. I am assuming when you clean and promote Woolsafe and all the benefits of it - when you are leaving the job you are also promoting 1001 as a spotting solution to use in the case of any accidents in between cleans as thats also Woolsafe approved and hence recommended?!

None of the posts are disputing training is good - we all need to keep learning. Our whole point is we do not understand why these products are endorsed when we all tell customers not to use them.

What would you say to someone Ken who has just used you, they tell you they specifically hired you due to you being Woolsafe approved and then when you are packing up they get out a new shiny bottle of 1001 and ask you - 'Ken, i see this is endorsed by Woolsafe on their website, is this good for spot cleaning my carpet with?'

This is my concern with Woolsafe - i would feel i am contradicting myself and hence i would not join for that reason

[Joe H]

Isnt it a case of "safe to use as long as used in accord with manufacturers recommendations".

Bit like a car - safe to use unless driven recklessly.
A kitchen knife is safe to use - unless you sink it into someone which is against recommendations.

Same as cleaning products we use - use them outside manufacturers recommendations and problems could occur. Even too much water can cause massive problems.

[CleanerCarpets]

So Joe would you recommend 1001 or use it on your own carpet? 

Also - if its the amount people are using thats the problem - then what about the new 'big area' cleaner thats currently being advertised on the telly? - same product, bigger can and the customer IS being directed to use it on mass.

Sorry, all still sounds like a get out and doesnt explain why the products are endorsed, it can only be money, which is fair enough, but surely thats a bad decision when it will put off so many cleaners from registering? Not a great decision for a profit making business?

[robert meldrum]

Specialist training is always worthwhile as it makes a Craftsman from a Journeyman and will on the odd occasion gain work from a discerning client.

In the case of Woolsafe endorsement, it's NEVER a good idea for a professional to be using the same product as the on that can be bought in any village store as it dramatically diminishes your status and effectively makes you redundant!

When discussions on a forum like this pour scorn on consumer products like Bex Bissel / Vax / Hoover / 1001 / Vanish, etc as they are like toys compared to the ever more powerful machinery and improving chemicals used by pro's it's not surprising to find anger that an organisation who targets professional carpet cleaners gets it's main income from endorsing chap DIY consumer products.

The only satisfactory answer might be for carpet cleaners to pressure the manufacturers of cleaning producs into supplying clear guidelines as is already done by suppliers of leather cleaning products detailing the safe use of their products on particular surfaces / fabrics / fibres.

Or you could just ignore the existence of Woolsafe and promote YOUR methods of cleaning to the marketplace as SAFE and EFFECTIVE   
 

[The WoolSafe Organisation]

Just some quick  and easy points before I look back in more detail what I missed – though we seem to go round in circles a bit.

"I use a microsplitter spotter .... miles better that that rubbish you sponser,"
James, WoolSafe does not sponsor any products (and neither do we rip off suppliers to list their products), but tests the ones they send us and accredits those that pass the tests. Simple, transparent, consistent.
There are approved microsplitters as well as products from all categories you might want to use. Please check our website www.woolsafe.org/professionalproducts.
If you think the consumer products in question are “very very poor”, you should see the ones that don’t pass! In fact, I suspect (with some of you in this forum, like Mike Halliday and Nigel_W said on Sunday) that you DO see these other products and their effects, and the customer just hides behind the well known names.

Bob, I do hope no carpet cleaners use consumer products in their spotting kits, and I am positive none of our members would dream of it! These are designed as multi purpose products for common stains, whilst a professional should use the best one for the particular job including solvents (not available to consumers) for removing paint and other oil based stains.

Robert, the new “big area” cleaner in the big can is NOT approved, and we certainly have nothing to do with any TV advertising.

“In the case of Woolsafe endorsement, it's NEVER a good idea for a professional to be using the same product as the on that can be bought in any village store ..."
“...it's not surprising to find anger that an organisation who targets professional carpet cleaners gets it's main income from endorsing chap DIY consumer products."
Robert, you got some of your facts seriously wrong: WoolSafe never suggested that professionals should use consumer products. We work with about 70 chemical suppliers, only 14 of which have consumer products. Only a small fraction of the 270 approved products is for consumers, so we do not depend on them to stay in business. Again, please see our website for the full list, you might find one you can recommend your customers to use in an emergency (www.woolsafe.org/consumerproducts). 

New Look Clean, by now I know better than use so much spotter on my carpet that it would foam after a year! Yes, I did use Troubleshooter on my carpet and I know WoolSafe founder Paul Bakker has successfully removed a red wine stain from his carpet with Vanish Oxy, without bleaching it. (as I’m sure thousands of people round the country do every year, you are just being called when something goes wrong.) For large area cleaning we use the services of the local WoolSafe Certified Operator.

I can certainly see the strength of feeling against these products, and will convey it to the manufacturers in question. But the fact remains, that these products passed all the tests, which lots of others on the market would not. None of you have come back yet with a name of a consumer product they could recommend which, even if the instructions were NOT followed, would clean without damage, as you expect from these ones.
Ágnes
 

[CleanerCarpets]

Agnes - a ph neutral microsplitter would clean without damage surely. As to why these arent available in shops (ie detergent free spotters) - thats all because 1001 is made so cheaply (and poorly) that a 'proper' spotter would just be totally outpriced to supply to the mega markets and they dont want to know, they just want a product that sells, bought in as cheaply as possible.

Unfortunately organisations like yours endorsing them just makes it all worse, you should be directing consumers to better products and work with smaller manufacturers to get them endorsed and sold instead of supporting the massive bodgit and scarpers.

Still - i have heard it all now and actually i am sitting here chuckling to myself - i've actually heard from a main man at Woolsafe he uses 1001 Troubleshooter on his carpet (like the way you disguised it by just calling it Troubleshooter without the 1001, even you cant bring yourself to say that!!)

Now that inspires me with confidence - lets check those Woolsafe training dates again then.........................NOT!

And i am Jason, not Robert