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Bob Robertson

  • Posts: 695
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2010, 07:42:46 pm »
Why don't we start our own safeforwool.org association for carpet cleaners.Get a logo(free), website (free), Domain name £20.00 , members and away we go! We can have our microsplitter spotter bottles endorsed and sell them! Happy days! ;D

Bob's yer Uncle!!!!!!

robert meldrum

  • Posts: 1984
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2010, 08:14:16 pm »
Derek  ;D ;D ;D ;D

mark shannon

  • Posts: 961
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2010, 08:33:16 pm »
WoolSafe accreditation means that the product:
has been independently tested and approved for use on wool carpets and rugs, meets the highest standards of performance,
is both safe and effective,
is regularly monitored for compliance with the stands.

This is the Woolsafe statement from their site. What it does not tell you and it's " fatal flaw " is the fact that it costs several thousand pounds to gain their accreditation and there is an annual fee of several thousand pounds to remain on their list.

This allows large / high volume sellers of cleaning products to become accredited and remain on the list while lower volume producers, such as the suppliers of products to the " trade " That is Carpet Cleaners, can't afford to pay their large fees " just to be listed "

About 10 years ago I used a product for the purpose of advertising the Woolsafe aspect but the supplier quit the Woolsafe programme as he regarded it to be  total rip off and felt his company could put the money saved to better use.



Robert I was told by the head guy at Woolsafe that  the story product accreditation costs thousands of pounds  is rubbish and the price is in the hundreds, he knew the supplier where the rumour came from and vigorously denied it.

Got to say I for one believe the guy, he told me the price but I have forgotten.
 
The woolsafe exam is no pushover like the NCCA exam and requires thorough revision of the excellent course notes.

I am a new member will give it a shot for two years promote it to custys and see how much work comes my way.

mark

Bob Robertson

  • Posts: 695
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2010, 08:52:20 pm »
Found this info from a post in 2008.

First approval of 1 product is about £1000, annual cost from second year around £600. With multiple products the “per product” rate goes down. It is not a lot for a healthy company. I can send you all the info if you wish, just drop me a line (agnes@woolsafe.org).

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=57840.0;all

Bob

mark shannon

  • Posts: 961
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2010, 09:12:21 pm »
Annual cost is high apparently Bob because they retest every year as manufacturers reformulate brands constantly.

mark

The WoolSafe Organisation

  • Posts: 22
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2010, 10:51:30 am »
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the wait for a reply. I logged on at five to five on Friday as I was leaving the office and didn’t have time to answer all the posts. There are several points I’d like to address starting with the most important;

1)"WoolSafe is an organisation which exists to make money and to do so endorses products from companies prepared to pay them large annual fees...."

Every product that is sent for testing goes through the same standards of testing under laboratory conditions following several Industry accepted European and British Standards. 20% of new products sent in for testing FAIL. It used to be higher but the industry is more aware of what is safe for wool now (in part, because of the work carried out by the woolsafe Orgnisation over the last 20 years). We Test for: resoiling, alkalinity(buffering), colourfastness, cleaning efficiency, optical brighteners etc. and more, Unfortunately Our Technical Director Dr. Zsednai isn't here today but if you'd like more information about standards (ISO, BS, WS) I can answer those tomorrow.

2)Why does WoolSafe approve products like 1001?

Because they pass all the same tests as the other products. N.B. Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark. The DIY market is a fact of life, unskilled consumers fix their own cars, decorate their houses and clean their own carpet. If they will insist on DIY at least we can point them in the direction of approved products instead of washing up liquid and bleach etc. What we can't control is how these products are applied, consumers will often flood the stain and scrub like mad. This is why you have high foaming residue and pile distortion. In our spotting guide we tell consumers how to do spot removal but they don't always do as advised.

As an Organisation we invariably recommend that carpet owners have their carpets professionally cleaned.

The Chemical testing side of the Organisation began twenty years ago and the Carpet cleaner network was set up 10 years later after discussions with carpet suppliers (mills and retailers) and their desire to use a skilled network of cleaners that use safe products.

3)WoolSafe is "Bunch of masons from Yorkshire".... "Steve searches the web looking for people who haven't paid their protection money".

This idea  that we are some multi-million pound underground organisation with loads of lawyers who chase poor down-trodden cleaners would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that some people may actually believe it!

Yes, we do protect the mark against misuse to protect our members from being associated with operators who haven't taken the course or the exam and perhaps don't share their ethics, professionalism and skills. When we do find an infringement a letter is sent that basically says; You may not be aware that you are misusing the mark but....please remove it.

By the way, I'm the only Yorkshireman in the organisation, We have dutch, Hungarian, Irish, American, Australian and Greek. We employ people for their experience and knowledge not their masonic connections ;)

Doug, I 'll let Dr Zsednai answer the Alkalinity/Ph debate.

Cheers, Steve


The WoolSafe Organisation

  • Posts: 22
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2010, 02:10:04 pm »
Hi Guys

I have tried to engage the Woolsafe people in a technical discusiion on the relative merits of alkalinity versus pH but they have never responded.

I believe it's a commercial organisation and as such is run as one!

Sometimes woolsafe are perceived as being a trade body, i.e non profit making but I don't believe it is.

Perhaps they can clarify?

Cheers

Doug


Hi Doug,

Follow this link,  http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=57840.0;all    to previous discussion on the subject of alkalinity, buffering and ph.  (as well as business ethics) Some explainations and answers in #16, #41 and #44. All questions are answered by us, just maybe not as quickly as some people demand, Neil. Maybe sometimes the replies are forgotten?

gwrightson

  • Posts: 3617
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2010, 03:52:21 pm »
Well.
i do know all the different handshakes , each one for your position in the lodge albeit very suttle differences so do I qualify? ;)

geoff

p.s.  The ladies evenings are great :D
who ever said dont knock before u try ,i never tried dog crap but i know i wouldnt like  haha

robert meldrum

  • Posts: 1984
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2010, 04:46:01 pm »
 " A SKILLED NETWORK OF CLEANERS WHO USE SAFE PRODUCTS " ............Well that's an interesting comment but I really don't think it has any credibility whatsoever.
If it had,  purchasers of carpetswould be given clear and specific instructions about the cleaning of their carpets and indeed who was " approved " to clean them and with what !
The upholstery manufacturers tried that approach for a number of years but it became obvious to consumers that it was actually a ploy to sell a form of insurance and increase retailers profits.



The WoolSafe Organisation

  • Posts: 22
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2010, 05:06:36 pm »
Rob
I'm not sure why you object to skilled cleaners using safe products?!? We work with carpet manufacturers and retailers,  supplying them with carpet care advice text for them to use in leaflets, brochures and on their website care pages. We even have carpet care leaflets that they can give away with each cut of carpet at point of sale so owners get the correct advice from day one. These leaflets advise owners to have their carpets professionally cleaned using woolsafe approved products and services. This is what WoolSafe has been doing for the last 20 years, trying to spread the word about correct carpet maintenance. You could look at the link I gave in the previous post and read #41.

Sorry, I don't get the bit about insurance ploy  :-\

robert meldrum

  • Posts: 1984
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2010, 06:40:20 pm »
I'm sure you know perfectly well what I meant. If lost in tranlation the / my comment was perhaps a little bit sarcastic but intended to be ironic, as the comment suggests others are NOT skilled and use products which are harmful to carpets containing wool when in the vast majority of cases that's absolute nonsense.

In over 25 years I've cleaned thousands of square yards of carpet, much of it wool / part wool and with many products.

Many have been repeat cleans over many years and non have shown any adverse effects from the chemicals used...............only one was " woolsafe " approved and that was a long time ago.

To explain the use of the word " ploy " you could substitute the word with  "marketing exercise " designed to " add value " to retail sales. I'm sure everyone knows what I mean


Re: woolsafe
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2010, 08:21:57 pm »
Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark.

Hopefully it's not a trade secret but what do the tests consist of?
Does 1001 remove blood?
Does it remove ketchup, tea, coffee, alkaline based soil, acid based oil?
Or is the test just a dab test on a perfectly new piece of wool carpet against nothing other than itself?
The point I'm making is it is sold to the public as the answer to 1001 problems. People are only going to use it against spillages/stains and it doesn't deal with many of them very well. I mean it's quite feasable that I could submit cow urine and as long as you follow my instructions to the letter I doubt there would be any adverse effects on wool, so if I were to do that would you sanction it as a safe product to use on wool?

The WoolSafe Organisation

  • Posts: 22
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2010, 09:05:29 pm »
Not all of the products in a range like 1001 are approved by us, only the ones that pass the testing so be careful to check if it carries the mark.

Hopefully it's not a trade secret but what do the tests consist of?
Does 1001 remove blood?
Does it remove ketchup, tea, coffee, alkaline based soil, acid based oil?
Or is the test just a dab test on a perfectly new piece of wool carpet against nothing other than itself?
The point I'm making is it is sold to the public as the answer to 1001 problems. People are only going to use it against spillages/stains and it doesn't deal with many of them very well. I mean it's quite feasable that I could submit cow urine and as long as you follow my instructions to the letter I doubt there would be any adverse effects on wool, so if I were to do that would you sanction it as a safe product to use on wool?

All woolsafe tests are in the public domain (no trade secret). For full list of test methods and performance standards visit our website

http://www.woolsafe.org/methods

By the way cow urine would be a pretty ineffective spotter as well as discolouring the carpet, damaging the dye stuffs  and being extemely smelly :o

Robert, I've never said that people who aren't woolsafe members are automatically bad cleaners, infact I admitted that I'm sure we have missed out on having serious professionals in the network because of the five year rule. Sorry if you feel we're 'eletist' etc. but that's not the case or our intention.

 Steve

Re: woolsafe
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2010, 09:54:17 pm »
By the way cow urine would be a pretty ineffective spotter

Strangely enough so is 1001 but .....Oh I think you know where i'm aiming here.

Steve. Taylor

  • Posts: 1036
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2010, 10:03:33 pm »
I would prefer cow urine in my waste tank than the 1001 foam

cow urine might add colour rather than take it out, but then farmers wouldnt pay as much as 1001 to get it endorsed.
Steve T       All the gear but no idea!
www.leatherrepairsouthampton.co.uk

Re: woolsafe
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2010, 10:09:24 pm »
All woolsafe tests are in the public domain (no trade secret). For full list of test methods and performance standards visit our website

Done that Steve and I won't dispute those tests are quite detailed BUT this off the website
(A) Cleaning Products
That no oxidising or reducing agents are present, which may cause bleaching or alteration of carpet colours.

Somewhere on my pc is a picture someone put on here showing a red carpet with loads of bleached out white marks caused by a product that is supposed to be woolsafe. I have also seen with my own eyes carpets with bleached out spots and when I asked to see the offending product, Mrs Customers pulls out the bottle of 1001 from under the sink.

Bob Robertson

  • Posts: 695
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2010, 10:19:16 pm »
Testing: Product Acceptability
The WoolSafe® test methods and performance requirements, details of which are available from The WoolSafe® Organisation or CRi, are designed to ensure that the product performs the function for which it is sold and does not have a deleterious effect on wool carpets or rugs.

The following characteristics of the different types of product are evaluated:

(A) Cleaning Products
That no oxidising or reducing agents are present, which may cause bleaching or alteration of carpet colours. ( Re test required on some of the endorsed products)

That the alkalinity is low: a well-buffered, i.e. difficult to neutralize, slightly alkaline product may have a worse effect than an initially more alkaline, but easily neutralized chemical.

The pH.

The cleaning performance: this should meet an acceptable standard for the type of product. (What is the acceptable standard ?)

The re-soiling characteristics: cleaned carpets should not re-soil more quickly than the carpet did before cleaning. ( Big re test on some of your endorsed products )

The effect on colour fastness: the product should not cause colour bleeding or a change in colour of dyed carpets. (Does bleaching the carpet not count then?)

Fire safety: aerosol foams or impregnated powder cleaners must not support burning.
Best place for some of the products would be on a fire, supporting burning would be a benefit !


Bob

CleanerCarpets

  • Posts: 1292
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2010, 11:21:04 pm »
can i ask - do the tests take into account common sense and fit for use?

if the manufacturers of these products know what tests are going to be done, of course they will produce a product that will pass these tests - to say they are fit for use just because of that is laughable

what about looking at the marketing of these products AND TESTING IF THEY FIT THAT PART OF THE EQUATION!

if 1001 formed crystals and vacuumed out of the carpet - we would never have problems with the product as it would of gone soon after use no matter how much was used

i am sorry, but for me the Woolsafe answer had fudged around the whole point, not answered it effectively and was probably better staying silent as they had before all the posts!

the answer is money related - if i had enough money i am sure i could get fairy liquid around the tests and approved if i bottled it as a high concentrate carpet and fabric cleaner - lets face it it will clean and i could buffer the ph without a problem

most carpet cleaners are not fools - contrary to some opinion most of us have a lot of sense and when things dont add up we know

no matter how many winks or smileys we get in the posting it wont get you any more registrations until you get the approved products right

2cleanright

  • Posts: 67
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2010, 11:37:03 pm »
Woolsafe do much more work with carpet manufacturers, retailers and cleaning product manufacturers than voluntary bodies like the NCCA could ever hope to do. As professional carpet cleaners we should do all we can to support their efforts in raising standards within the industry.

There are a huge number of products in the Vanish and 1001 ranges, to name just a few, and only the ones which pass the stringent testing carry ther woolsafe mark - and these may not be perfect - many of the products I use every day will cause damage if not used in accordance with the manufacturers intructions, and how many consumers do you know who even bother to read instrucions, let alone follow them?

Bob- you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. If you can join a respected international organisation, use their logos and "clout" with manufacturers, retailers consumers and insurance companies to gain extra work, possibly at a higher value because of your perceived expertise, then why dont you? Or is it just that you arent professional enough in your approach to gain this type of work? Or maybe you think you might fail the exam?

Dont knock it till youve tried it. I get back far more than the cost of training and/ or membership each year.

CleanerCarpets

  • Posts: 1292
Re: woolsafe
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2010, 11:59:19 pm »
you are still fudging around the whole point and question

the products like 1001 and alike SHOULD NOT BE APPROVED UNLESS THEY ARE FIT FOR PURPOSE. The tests should test this - if they dont do what they say on the tin or in the advert they shouldnt be on the list - period

we can all market the brand to get more work - the point is some of us will choose not to market a brand which will endorse products we all discourage EVERY SINGLE DAY

lets face it - our clients rarely have heard of the NCCA or Woolsafe and its us that promote their worth and get extra work from it - whether you choose to do that with Woolsafe comes down to whether you believe in what they do - read the posts, i am not alone, we dont like their ethics