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Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 08:49:18 am »
having sold cars for dealers for about 8 years in my younger days, i could tell you what a pcp is, however, tax wise, no idea, thats what we had business managers for. ask to speak to the dealers business manager, he is the finance guy, and he SHOULD know about it.

just an assumption, but i would assume you could claim your deposit and payments back...but i am no accountant, it just makes sense.

when you have a ltd company there are technicalities, on pad/off pad, write downs each year etc, but as a sole trader, i believe it can be easier than all that!

Dave Willis

Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 05:09:17 pm »
I'll have a chat with my accountant next week. I was rather hoping to talk to someone who ha done it. I know Squeaky did some time ago (but he does his own tax returns I think).

I would have thought a lot of the Ionics boys had done it this way.

Dave Willis

Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 05:17:55 pm »
I think I may have found it:


Personal Contract Purchase (PCP) is similar to Lease Purchase in that it defers an amount of the loan to the end of the agreement based on the expected value of the vehicle at the point the balloon payment is due. It is also based on your agreed, expected annual mileage. The difference, plus the interest is spread over the term of the loan and repaid as a lower monthly payment.

The unique part of the PCP agreement is that the vehicle is guaranteed by the finance company to be worth at least the value of the balloon payment at the time the balloon payment is due. This means that if the vehicle is worth less than this amount, you can hand it back to the finance company with nothing more to repay (subject to mileage and conditions). You can still choose to pay the residual value and keep the car and when all is paid, the car is yours to keep or sell on.

PCP is only available to private individuals. No tax relief or benefits apply.

http://www.woodstonefunding.co.uk/cgi-bin/purchase.pl
So it would need to be a lease purchase to gain tax relief ..... I think  ???


Spruce

  • Posts: 8433
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2010, 07:37:22 pm »
Hi Dave

A Lease Purchase agreement is treated in the same way as a Hire Purchase agreement. The only difference is the balloon payment at the end. However, the risk is yours at the end of the day. If your van is not worth the final balloon payment - perhaps due to market forces, that's your problem - you can't just hand it back and start with a new one - you are responsible for making that final payment to complete the transaction. (If you trade the van in the dealer will settle the outstanding finance amount - your balloon payment first and if everything goes to plan, you should be able to have a liitle left over to put toward your new van's deposit.)  Tax wise, the van is an asset on your books and would be written down as capital equipment. The interest portion of the lease is also claimed against profits as an expense for tax purposes.
Again, the PCP is not an asset on your books so the deposit and the monthly rentals are the only things that are tax deductible.

The PCP that you originally began with can be adapted to suit yourself with add ons such as maintenance, fair wear & tear tyres, breakdown recovery, replacement van should yours be off the road, etc. But if you went the LP route, you can take out separate cover, perhaps even with a different company to cover all these things.

Spruce
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Dave Willis

Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2010, 09:17:12 pm »
Thanks again Spruce. So the main difference with a pcp and lp is the guaranteed value of the van. What a minefield!
I wonder how the tax man seperates the two.
So, how does the tax work? Say for arguments sake you pay £4000 per year in instalments - would you pay no tax on that figure, would it be classed as an expense at the end of the year and so four grand is deducted from your gross income?
In the first year I suppose you would add the deposit to that figure too and again in the final year your balloon payment would be tagged to the final years payments too.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8433
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2010, 11:18:23 pm »
Hi Dave,
Its up to you or your accountant to sort your tax out for the taxman.

With regard to PCP. You are renting a vehicle so you are not the registered keeper, the finance house is. So all you can claim back as expenses for that vehicle is the initial deposit, the monthly payments including VAT and all running costs, ie fuel, servicing, insurance etc. less personal usage - usually a percentage.

If you decide to buy the van at the end of the contract then the van is treated as a purchase. At the point to pay your £4000.00 ( your final balloon payment in your first ex yesterday) the van becomes yours and the registration is transfered from the finance house to your name. Even although you have had the van from new, you then become it's second owner, the finance house would be it's first owner. (If you bought a pre - registered van, the dealer is the first owner, the finance house the second and you become the third owner.)

So you have now purchased your van for £4000.00. The tax implication now changes. From the date of purchase (the day you pay your £4000.00), the van now becomes an asset in your business, so you would either write it down at 40% for the first year (Its value would now be £2400.00, claim £1600.00 less personal use) and the following years you would write it down at 25% of its last value (2nd year its new value would be £1800.00, claim £600.00 less personal use) OR you could choose the write the whole £4000.00 off in the first year, but this would depend on your business. If you took out another loan to buy your van for £4000.00, then you are able to claim your interest portion of the finance but not the basic loan repayment - there was a formula available from the Receiver at one time of how you would spread this claim over the period, but I don't know what the regulations are now.

The leasing twist become popular many years ago as it meant that the deposit on a new van was minimal, especially for the VAT registered business. In those days to get finance on a van, the deposit could be around 10 - 20% of the purchase price + the full VAT.  A lease allowed that business the put down a smaller deposit, usually 3 rentals in advance, + the VAT on the 3 rentals rather than the VAT on the full amount. It was only after that, that Reg Vardy pioneered the 'buy any vehicle for £99.00 deposit' which also stretched to commercial vehicles. In those days credit was plentiful but interest rates charged were high. HP was then more popular as that is what the dealer sold as he could control the finance rate so he could skim money of the finance portion of the deal as well. With lease deals the vehicles were not financed through the dealerships so they lost out of their cut.

 The balloon payment at the end reduced the monthly payments even more, but it came at a 'price'. On HP your monthly payment reduced your risk as you were paying the loan to zero at the end, but with a balloon payment you took more risk on, either directly or indirectly, ie through higher interest rates on the finance portion of the lease and end of contract charges that would come out of the 'woodwork' if you choose the option the hand the van back. For example, a scratch longer than 10mm was not classed as fair wear & tear so they would charge for its repair, ie respray of the panel. They also charged the customer for vehicle vallets and so on, although in virtually all instances the work was never done, as the vehicle went straight to auction. High excess mileage penalities where very good money spinners although an extra 5 or 6 thousand miles meant very little at auction.
Part of the deal was that you would have the van serviced by the dealer when each service was due, it's in the small print. If the service book wasn't stamped to show these services were done, then this kicked in further penalities.

If anyone does go down the road of vehicle leasing, please ensure you get a booklet from the finance house detailing what they class as fair wear and tear, and study it before you sign any documentation.

Spruce

Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Gav Camm lammy 283

  • Posts: 7520
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2010, 12:43:40 am »
Hi Dave,
Its up to you or your accountant to sort your tax out for the taxman.

With regard to PCP. You are renting a vehicle so you are not the registered keeper, the finance house is. So all you can claim back as expenses for that vehicle is the initial deposit, the monthly payments including VAT and all running costs, ie fuel, servicing, insurance etc. less personal usage - usually a percentage.

If you decide to buy the van at the end of the contract then the van is treated as a purchase. At the point to pay your £4000.00 ( your final balloon payment in your first ex yesterday) the van becomes yours and the registration is transfered from the finance house to your name. Even although you have had the van from new, you then become it's second owner, the finance house would be it's first owner. (If you bought a pre - registered van, the dealer is the first owner, the finance house the second and you become the third owner.)

So you have now purchased your van for £4000.00. The tax implication now changes. From the date of purchase (the day you pay your £4000.00), the van now becomes an asset in your business, so you would either write it down at 40% for the first year (Its value would now be £2400.00, claim £1600.00 less personal use) and the following years you would write it down at 25% of its last value (2nd year its new value would be £1800.00, claim £600.00 less personal use) OR you could choose the write the whole £4000.00 off in the first year, but this would depend on your business. If you took out another loan to buy your van for £4000.00, then you are able to claim your interest portion of the finance but not the basic loan repayment - there was a formula available from the Receiver at one time of how you would spread this claim over the period, but I don't know what the regulations are now.

The leasing twist become popular many years ago as it meant that the deposit on a new van was minimal, especially for the VAT registered business. In those days to get finance on a van, the deposit could be around 10 - 20% of the purchase price + the full VAT.  A lease allowed that business the put down a smaller deposit, usually 3 rentals in advance, + the VAT on the 3 rentals rather than the VAT on the full amount. It was only after that, that Reg Vardy pioneered the 'buy any vehicle for £99.00 deposit' which also stretched to commercial vehicles. In those days credit was plentiful but interest rates charged were high. HP was then more popular as that is what the dealer sold as he could control the finance rate so he could skim money of the finance portion of the deal as well. With lease deals the vehicles were not financed through the dealerships so they lost out of their cut.

 The balloon payment at the end reduced the monthly payments even more, but it came at a 'price'. On HP your monthly payment reduced your risk as you were paying the loan to zero at the end, but with a balloon payment you took more risk on, either directly or indirectly, ie through higher interest rates on the finance portion of the lease and end of contract charges that would come out of the 'woodwork' if you choose the option the hand the van back. For example, a scratch longer than 10mm was not classed as fair wear & tear so they would charge for its repair, ie respray of the panel. They also charged the customer for vehicle vallets and so on, although in virtually all instances the work was never done, as the vehicle went straight to auction. High excess mileage penalities where very good money spinners although an extra 5 or 6 thousand miles meant very little at auction.
Part of the deal was that you would have the van serviced by the dealer when each service was due, it's in the small print. If the service book wasn't stamped to show these services were done, then this kicked in further penalities.

If anyone does go down the road of vehicle leasing, please ensure you get a booklet from the finance house detailing what they class as fair wear and tear, and study it before you sign any documentation.

Spruce


very detailed n well explained spruce after all my rescent problems
with my renault trafic im seriously looking at these options myself
but not with a french vechicle
LET YOUR PANES BE MY PLEASURE

"If CALSBERG did WINDOW CLEANING
 it would be C.C.C  Probably the best WINDOW CLEANERS IN THE WORLD ..........."

Dave Willis

Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2010, 07:18:51 am »
However. if you keep the vehicle at the end of the term then I would hope that any damage would be void?

Very interesting reading Spruce and a lot there to think about. Thanks for your time to post all that.

If you look at the whole package, it seems an expensive way to purchae a van.
If you Ewanise it and break it right down then say 4k a year can still become enticing.

4k = £333 a month - sounds dear.
£83.00 a week - sounds better
£16 a day - half an hours work - sounds very acceptable
No breakdown worries, full three year warranty.

Mmm. plenty to think about.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8433
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2010, 08:46:53 am »
Hi Dave

No problem - the vehicle finance route is a minefield as you said earlier. Glad to be of some help.

If you keep the van at the end of the lease then all these charges wouldn't be applicable, it's only if you hand the van back. It depends on market conditions at the time as well as to how aggressively the finance house applies its penalities and also who you get doing the van appraisal and the mood of that person at the time.

Most salemen would give you a weekly cost for finance as it always sounds better than the monthly amount. £49.00 per week sounds much more affordable than £210.00 per month. As you said, the way to look at it is totalling up how much you the van will cost over the whole finance period and compare it to it's original cost price. When you do this it's easy to see why finance is such big business.

Marketing a product including finance as all about getting you, the customer to see things in a better light than it actually is. The Ford Motor Corporation in South Africa was trying to market their 1.6i hot hatch against the Opel (Vauxhall) Kadett 1.6i hot hatch but were up against the 0 - 60 mph stats being a lot worse than Opel's - about 2 secs if my memory serves me. So Ford never released those figures, but advertised its 0 - 60 mph as "one deep breath" which Joe Public thought was very fast, much faster than the Opel. But how long is a deep breath?
Salesmen often use this tactic to make buying the next model up more palatable. "you can have the LX with remote central locking blah blah for just the equivalent of a couple of bottles of wine a month" or "a couple of packets of flags" if they were smokers. That's nothing is it?

We did this ourselves last year. We purchased 2 SLX carbon fibre poles from Gardiners. They were more expensive than fibreglass poles, but they are much lighter and stiffer. If they allow us to clean an extra house a day then they will pay for themselves - will all need to justify to ourselves why we choose to do something.

When it comes to buying a car or a van, it always ends up to be how much a month you can afford and how much deposit you've got. And a salesman will always try a longer finance term during negotiation to reduce monthly payments to what appears to be a pittance - easly affordable to clinch the sale - do the deal.

Spruce
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Dave Willis

Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2010, 08:59:52 am »
I had one dealer who told me the depreciation on a new van worked out about the same as the lease payments anyway  ???

Went home and thought about it and of course he was a long way out. He also didn't allow for the two grand+ you pay the finance company for using their services.
At the end of the day you don't get anything for nothing I realise that. It was the tax side that I was curious about. Seems you only have to sign the wrong form and you could cause more problems.

Older vans are undoubtedly the most cost effective way of working but only as long as they remain reliable. Things like a new clutch are very expensive to fix these days. Simple thing like a service and mot will probably cost me around £600 next week if the days lost earnings are included.  :(

Sean Dyer

  • Posts: 2947
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2010, 09:30:24 am »
I had one dealer who told me the depreciation on a new van worked out about the same as the lease payments anyway  ???

Went home and thought about it and of course he was a long way out. He also didn't allow for the two grand+ you pay the finance company for using their services.
At the end of the day you don't get anything for nothing I realise that. It was the tax side that I was curious about. Seems you only have to sign the wrong form and you could cause more problems.

Older vans are undoubtedly the most cost effective way of working but only as long as they remain reliable. Things like a new clutch are very expensive to fix these days. Simple thing like a service and mot will probably cost me around £600 next week if the days lost earnings are included.  :(

I agree , older vans are the best but its guaranteeing they will run for long enough ie if i spent 3 k on a van id want a t least 3 years out of it but depending on the mileage and how many miles you do , you are bound to have issues at some point

my car is supposedly reliable  but ive had loads of lost time due to clutches, batteries, exhaust falling off and loads of other stuff..

Maybe getting a nearly new van for about 7k is a better idea??

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: pcp's on your van?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2010, 10:23:41 am »
Just for your info Dave

My van was leased by 2 companies for it's first three years of life before I bought it. I have the full, documented service history which includes what the companies had to pay for when handing the van back (damage)

Two of the most intriguing were new ply lining & new cabin carpet, both of which weren't cheap!

Also a scratch on one of the wings & a new spare tyre (as it was damaged somehow)