[Moderator David@stives]

There used to be a time when if you wanted to be a window cleaner, you needed an head for heights and you had to learn the traditional skills.And it was guess work how much you could charge
These 3 factors put people off ,i know it did with me at first.
But lately there seems to be an influx into window cleaning by people who only know to clean with wfp ,and have only come into w/c because they read on these forums "get a wfp and you can earn £30-40 an hour" reading this and i would of done the same .
i have met the such like on a few differant occassions with cleaning companys and carpet cleaners etc all making a bee-line into our trade.
There was a time when you had to graft for your money .know its all to easy with wfp .in my area the number of new w/c`s on the scene  with wfp as doubled recently and will probably continue to rise ,which in the end will drive prices downwards .the laws  of supply and demand will dictate this .
Its alright for now with my long term regulars,but time will come to start replacing customers ,and there will be no new ones because there will be wfp ers doing them for cheaper and cheaper prices.

and another thing are these guys cowboys coming in with little or no training ,with there big shiny vans .probably not ,same as me
honest hard working folk who are after easy money.i have never seen or heard of a "cowboy" in my area in 7 years .
thats enough ranting for now
dave

harbinger of the future , forteller of things to come.

[Simon Carter]

I've just posted something myself about downward pressure on pricing because of the WFP. The truth I suspect is that we do not know the long term ramifications of this technology, but it will I believe change the industry in ways that have yet to become apparent. I do believe that those who are making serious money should make hay whilst the sun shines.

[UBA1]

Not sure if i totally agree with the top post, i definately see your point though as it does make sense.

I think it may be good for our trade in some respect, as maybe cowboys will go, and professionals will come on board. Let face it, the cowboys are 'normally' unwilling to part with their cash. A ladder and bucket is far cheaper way to start than WFP.

You may in fact find, w/c charging more as the jobs they do, they see are worthy of higher prices because of the factors taken into cleaning the windows.

Look at it this way. You have Ford and you have BMW, Ford could never match the quality of BMW, hence the price in charging the customer for the motor car. This could easily apply to us.

The more professional our outlook is, the more the customer expects to pay.

I`m not saying your wrong, but the above is just another angle to be looked at.

[rp cleaning services]

before i became a window cleaner i was in the antique trade for 10 years,7 years ago a internet company started a site called ebay as a way of buying and selling antiques ,we as dealers jumped on the bandwagon and said this was the best way of selling and gave up our shops and antique fairs and just sold on ebay,what happened was prices were driven down by as much as 65% on some items and prices went down right across the board,i was selling on ebay for 6 years but finaly gave up selling on the site 6 months ago as it is cheaper to buy stock on ebay to resell at the antique fairs,yes that is right it as come full circle people who use to sell on ebay now sell at the antique fairs and in there antique centres.wfp will bring down prices in some areas as in other business the more people who have it the cheaper the jobs become,i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last,traditional window cleaning will always be around like it as for the last 300 odd years,i have picked up 63 jobs up in the last 6 weeks from people using wfp in the boston erea and not cheap jobs 10-20 a house,traditional window cleaners dont worry, if you can see the glass you know you are doing a professional job and you will always be in work, in the antique trade when you buy antiques you always inspect what you buy, you cannot guess,the same with windows you cannot guess you are doing a good job you have got to know you are doing a good job,wfp users are you doing a good job,are you sure

[poleman]

i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last

SO Have you every tryed a WFP?

Andy

[rp cleaning services]

no i have not tried wfp,but have watched some people use it in the boston erea,one person who use it do a great job and the windows look great, but then i have seen the bad side to it,people rushing the job using wfp

[s.hughes]

We have had topics like this before but more on the thought of the customer buying a system for themself. There are systems that you just plug into your tap and it filters the water while you use it. You can pick these up for £100. There is no skill in using a wfp so customers can do it themselves.
The question is will it come to this? Who knows, but I doubt it.
I have a wfp trolley system and I find that I prefer to use ladders on most of my work. I dont know if I will always feel that way but I do at the moment. I only use it for the windows that are a real pain and dangerous to get to. Its also a good thing when advertising.

steve

[Moderator David@stives]

as they say some clean is better than no clean.

[Sir Squeaky]

It won't affect my round.
Most of my customers don't want it when I've talked about it.
It'll never replace the squeegee.

I'm not alone in not wanting the hassle of running it either.
I know of at least 10 w/cers in my town and only 2 have got it, the rest aren't interested.

Roger.

[dai]

I put a posting on here a few months ago to the same affect as Davids post.
The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and  buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.
Before WFP he would not of dreamt of going up ladders, but now, He can go window cleaning, and charge a lot less for doing it than a young guy with kids and mortgage.
I have just entered the WFP word myself at the age of 63. Did my first commercial jobs with it yesterday. I chose this job to start as it's inside and out and I could check the results from the inside. I was quite impressed, just some slight spotting on a few of the windows. I had a few runs on the inside though, the water had penetrated the seals. Wooden windows too.
Having built up an enviable reputation over many years for quality and reliability,I will take to the WFP very carefully. I'm afraid of losing what has taken me many years to achieve. Dai

[Roy Harding]

Well I live in Monmouth just up the road, and there are 5 main window cleaners and five have wfp. And 3 with over 20yrs experence and all of them have said the only regret they have is they should have done it years ago. So if you have window cleanners of this experence giving that recomendation, how can you knock it if you havent tried it.

But as you say I think traditional window cleaning is a must have skill as you need to do insides as well.

Roy

[poleman]

i believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last

The above statment in my view is wrong WFP is here to stay.

Andy

[H h20]

well iv`e been using wfp for a couple of months now and yes at first i had a few problems but now all of my jobs have been cleaned at least a couple of times with it it`s great,if you use it right you can`t go wrong,you are constantly using a flow of fresh clean water,and the more you use it it makes the job better,i tried it on my own windows first taking my time to master it just like you would with using pad, squeegee and scrim,iv`e been a window cleaner for 17 years and it is the safety aspect of it i will never go back to ladders,i still do low windows with pad,squeegee and scrim,if you are fine using ladders then carry on im not nocking anyone who still uses ladders it`s just not for me anymore,if you do your job right you have nothing to worry about,all my customers are more than happy with wfp and some are even happier that windows that were out of reach before like over conservatory roofs and sloping roofs(no danger involved),my brother is a window cleaner and has fell twice both times hurting himself,and 1 of them was falling on a garden swinging chair breaking it! yes he still uses ladders and like some of you doesn`t think he will ever go to wfp but thats his decision,if wfp is not for you don`t knock it till youv`e tried it,Gaz.

[H h20]

O and by the way wfp is part of our trade weather your using a shammy leather pad squeegee,scrim it`s still a way of cleaning windows,so the topic "will wfp kill our trade" needs a bit more thinking about! 

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi everyone,

With reference to ‘Dave’s’ initial post, I can understand where he is coming from, but at the same time I tend to disagree. I am wfp and traditional, however, I also suspect I am one of the dearest window cleaners in my area.

Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work.

However, this is not an ideal world, so I very much doubt this will ever happen, but I would like to see it happen.

The rogue/ cowboy window cleaners are always going to be out there and I don’t think there is anything we will ever be able to stop this. Apart from offering a polite, regular and good service.

I will not lower my prices, I will not undercut my fellow competitors (not intentionally), I don’t ask my clients what their old window cleaner charges and when I am told, ‘We can get it cheaper elsewhere’, my reply is, ‘Good, I will call back in three months to see if your happy with the other service’.

Oh and for the comment some one made ‘I believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last’. I was told that about mobile phones 15 years ago and now everyone has one. I am also sure the person who invented the car was told that by the person who invented the horse drawn cart. Plus, if and when the HSA clamp down the new reg’s, wfp will probably be the only option.

At the end of the day, People do not like change, but change is a must for the world to grow.

Well I have gone on too much and ur probably all asleep now

Andrew

[H h20]

Hi everyone,

With reference to ‘Dave’s’ initial post, I can understand where he is coming from, but at the same time I tend to disagree. I am wfp and traditional, however, I also suspect I am one of the dearest window cleaners in my area.

Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work.

However, this is not an ideal world, so I very much doubt this will ever happen, but I would like to see it happen.

The rogue/ cowboy window cleaners are always going to be out there and I don’t think there is anything we will ever be able to stop this. Apart from offering a polite, regular and good service.

I will not lower my prices, I will not undercut my fellow competitors (not intentionally), I don’t ask my clients what their old window cleaner charges and when I am told, ‘We can get it cheaper elsewhere’, my reply is, ‘Good, I will call back in three months to see if your happy with the other service’.

Oh and for the comment some one made ‘I believe wfp is a fad and will probably not last’. I was told that about mobile phones 15 years ago and now everyone has one. I am also sure the person who invented the car was told that by the person who invented the horse drawn cart. Plus, if and when the HSA clamp down the new reg’s, wfp will probably be the only option.

At the end of the day, People do not like change, but change is a must for the world to grow.

Well I have gone on too much and ur probably all asleep now

Andrew

Hi Andrew,i would shake your hand if i could,your post was spot on!
nice one mate  Gaz.

[dai]

Andrew I totally agree with every thing you say, It would be nice to operate within pricing guidlines. couldn't work of course because half the wc's would know nothing about it.
I asked one wc a few weeks ago about his feelings on the new regs. "What regs are they then"The guy was in totall ignorance. DAI

[H h20]

And Andrew don`t get David@st-Ives started with cowboy window cleaners,lol 

[Moderator David@stives]

cheeky

[williamx]

If you believe that wfp is a fad and will go away sooner rather than later then you have made the biggest business mistake of your life.

Now the European Goverment have got their teeth into the Heath and Safety issues arising from working at height, they will not let go and they will make more stricter rules concerning working with ladders.

Next on the list will be the insurance companies who have to pay out for all the accidents that happen from working at height>

In 2004 there was 67 deaths and 4000 accidents from people who work at height.

So If the insurance companies are paying just £5000 on average for a accident and £100000 for a death then they are looking at paying out over £26 million pounds per year, which will rise quite quickly, at the moment insurance companies look for any reason possible for not paying out, so with the influx of wfp use this is their ideal excuse to get out of paying for a claim from some cleaner who has fallen from his ladders and will be spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

In any trade there is always cowboys who try the make as much money without the effort of doing a good job, at the end of the day they get caught out, and as for the cleaners who do a bad job,  this is only because  they have not been trained correctly.  This is now been addressed by the various companies that have started training courses and it won't be long before they start offering proper examinations and quallifications which will be reconised by the general public.

As far as the cost of window cleaning going down, I think you are mistaken and in fact the prices will increase with time.  You will also find that your customers will be happy to pay more for a window cleaner who uses fresh CLEAN water the do their windows instead of a cleaner who at the moment who turns up with a dirty bucket of water and a filthy cloth..

From the beginning of the industrial revolution and before, workers have fought against change that affects them, whether this is to their benefit or not, only the ones who are willing to accept changes will go on and make their fortune.