[H h20]

cheeky

Just a laff mate,keep it cool remember to breath nice a deep,lol 
all the best,Gaz.

[H h20]

Williamx,we are not worthy,your a man of perfect words,Gaz.

[24-7 S C Services]

Williamx

Very good post mate, i take my hat of to you

Andrew

[williamx]

24-7 S C Services wrote

Supply and demand always decreases prices; however, I have mentioned this to several people so far, but not in the forum. I believe, if window cleaning is your genuine profession and this is what you rely on for your bread and butter, to pay the bills mortgages etc, that we should form a new trade group similar to NFMWGF. This should be run by window cleaners for window cleaners. A national price guide should be adopted by all window cleaners. No price wars and undercutting should take place. Why, well if we all charged the same, the only time a cleaner should loose his or her client is by the poor standards of their work

I Agree that a new Trade Organasation should be started for window cleaners.

They should be able to offer the best training get the best insurance quotes obtain discounts from the various suppliers look after our interests in parliment and be there for us when we need them in a emergency.

As for setting a basic rate across the country for window cleaning this will not work for several factors.

The cost of living in different parts of the country differs greatly and it is also against the law to fix prices.

[Moderator David@stives]

well the wfp back patting parade are out.
i personally have not put my system on the public and dont know if i ever will .
i earned over £800 in 3 +1/2 days this week doing traditional.so i know you dont need a pole to make money.
i think the law can make you wear a seatbelt but ladders ??
i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.

[Sir Squeaky]

i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.

True.
Even with "dirty" water you'll still trust your technique more than something that might dry clean or might not.

The day I have to shell out thousands and spend all day on here asking for help is the day I start a different business.

Traditional is a much easier life.

[matt]

i know they are good for safety but i can not see any advantage apart from high work.

True.
Even with "dirty" water you'll still trust your technique more than something that might dry clean or might not.

The day I have to shell out thousands and spend all day on here asking for help is the day I start a different business.

Traditional is a much easier life.

its not that hard though is it

the facts are

produce pure water

brush on pure water using brush and pole

rinse of window with pure water

walk away

[UBA1]

I put a posting on here a few months ago to the same affect as Davids post.
The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and  buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.
Before WFP he would not of dreamt of going up ladders, but now, He can go window cleaning, and charge a lot less for doing it than a young guy with kids and mortgage.
I have just entered the WFP word myself at the age of 63. Did my first commercial jobs with it yesterday. I chose this job to start as it's inside and out and I could check the results from the inside. I was quite impressed, just some slight spotting on a few of the windows. I had a few runs on the inside though, the water had penetrated the seals. Wooden windows too.
Having built up an enviable reputation over many years for quality and reliability,I will take to the WFP very carefully. I'm afraid of losing what has taken me many years to achieve. Dai

The danger as I see it is not from young guys starting out with WFP. The advent of WFP has meant that a middle aged guy can take a large chunk of his early retirement, or redundancy money and  buy a WFP system.
With a paid up mortgage and a pension to draw, this kind of guy is just looking for enough money to top up his pension, maybe pay for his forign hols too.


Spot on!!!

My old man is starting, and i`ve helped him too, he would never of dreamed of doing this before WFP...

[Sir Squeaky]

Yeah,easy to do.
But time in the morning loading barrels of water, charging battery, testing readings etc.. and all that bother when you get home.

Of course, not to mention all the problems everyone gets- that's what keeps this site going.

In theory it's easy, but it's extra hassle.

[simbo]

whilst i do not know very much about wfp, i do think that domestic customers pay window cleaners to risk their necks rather than their own. By using wfp on domestics does this not make customer think the service should be cheaper as no risks, also wf backpacks are getting cheaper all the time, how soon will people be buying these from local market. I in no way knock wfp, but when i do decide to invest in one it will only be if i need it for comercial higher buildings, poss backpack for awkward to get at windows first , besides i love being able to see the windows up close so they gleam and no streaks, thats my job after all trad is best and will always be needed i think as it takes skill a lot of nerve and is also very enjoyable
cheers paul

[Moderator David@stives]

i dont think we are at risk from customers doing there own windows ,as there is still time and skill involved after all.

[simbo]

I know there will always be work for us ,it just might be reduced a bit thats all. I went into a wilkinson store the other day when they were replening the window cleaning poles and that same afternoon they were all gone,so a few people willing to have a go as saves  a bit of cash.
paul

[Moderator David@stives]

well they may have the intention of doing there own but the novelty soon wears off .A lot of my customers have there own squeegies but dont know how to use them properly,or just cant be bothered.That is why i am still doing there windows.

[mark f]

This is a brilliamt thread started by David 

 It discusses many of the issues i have with wfp. Right at the start of this trend i said the very same thing, that now our trade can be learned virtually instantly and hence we will find ourselves getting heavilly undercut in time. I think this may already be starting.

  Believe me a few grand is nothing for someone to borrow and set up a buisiness that wipes the floor with what they earned before.

  I know guys who have started and are employing imigrants to go round spraying the windows!

 So long as a profit is made they can charge low prices.

 This reply is not me slating the technology but this is the way i see it going very soon.  In my local town you would keep your work if you were a good window cleaner which meant you could charge more for that service.

 But now everyone will soon be spraying with wfp and so long as you rinse properly all will do the exact same job, so the deciding factor for the customer will be who is the cheapest! And that could hit the commercial side more than the domestic where people get used to your face and you become one of the familly as it were.

 So who knows but ive been saying this to my window cleaning mates all along.

 As regards does it do as good a job, well do we have a choice?!!!(regs etc)

 but you give me a dirty bucket of water and my equipment and you do a house next door with wfp and i would feel a lot more confident of doing a better job for the customer. 

[Moderator David@stives]

well one thing that gives me hope is i have actually attended a course and i still can not get it perfect .so there will be a lot of disillusioned newbies out there.who think it looks easy. i think only time will tell if wfp get to actually keep there customers.remember customers will tolerate a bad job for a short while ,but long term i doubt it .
the sales pitch really makes me laugh.
if it were a car you are buying and the sales man says  ;  ;DDont worry about that blue smoke coming out of the exhaust it will clear up in 3 months 
i think traditional will have the last laugh on domestic but not on commercial .when the traditional skills die out then that is when we will be in huge demand for our squeegie skills.

after all wfp leaves spots i should know the man at the bwca shown me.

[williamx]

Wfp is the biggest danger to the traditional window cleaner since 1697 when the goverment brought in the Window Tax.

If you go back to them days your find that they cleaned their windows nearly the same way as they do today.

Except for the use of the squeegie - cleaning chemicals - belt bucket and all of the other little tools that we have made up to make our job more efficient and our lifes more easier.

When someone invented the squeegie the "Traditionalist" were up in arms saying how you can't do a proper job with one of these and they a fad and will go away soon.  But as time tells the squeegie is here to stay and the "old traditional window cleaner" is turning in his grave every time we take one out of our belt bucket (yet another new invention).

The wfp system is a further step forward in the progression of the window cleaning trade and like all the other tools that have come and been embraced by us all then so too should the wfp system.

Remember the dinosaurs did not die out because a meteor hit the earth, but because of changes to the weather.

The dinosaurs either could't or would't change their way of life and adapt to the new weather conditions and so became extinct.

[Moderator David@stives]

ha but is it more simple and cheaper to just go to work with a squeegie and a couple of scrim .you cant beat simplicity.wfp is not the natural progresser to the squeegie ,like the squeegie was to the scrim .after all we still use scrim for lead ,georgian,and wiping the edge and mopping up.all the wfp has done has made first floor safer ,not better.some days i set off on foot to clean locally,and it is nice to be free of the car for a few hours .you cant do that with wfp. and if you go on a big estate you have to move your van every 5 minutes.
i say keep the job as simple as you can .
wfp has its uses .but it is not here to take over.

[GRAHAM.K]

well,
first of all"SUPPLY AND DEMAND ALWAYS DECREASES PRICES" what an earth does that mean. Maybe what you mean is that in a free market economy the price for goods or services is determined by the ratio of supply and demand.There is a demand and a supply for houses but prices have not gone down.

With regards to wfp'ing i get the impression that the guys who want move their business forward have embraced this new technology , in my opinion it is necassary to compete with other professional cleaning companies.

The guys who prefer the trad methods probably do houses and the odd corner shop, not really direct competition with the serious wfp cleaners.

This argument about leaving spots on windows is in my opinion futile.We use Ionic equipment and leave our windows clean. You may get the odd spot for a number of reasons but so what unless you go looking for it you won't notice.
In 30 years of window clening i've yet to meet the man or woman who uses a squeege and leaves every window perfect, that my friends is a definite case
of self delusion.

ps. in my experience the guys in shiny new vans tend to do better than those guys driving around in rusty 15 year old mondeos, that goes for any profession.
regards

[John Conroy]

GRAHAM your spot on (no pun ) keeping it real

John

[Justin Ruggles]

Well said Graham, Bang on.

Justin