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silverclean

  • Posts: 11
Pay and Agency Fees
« on: June 10, 2010, 03:56:46 pm »
I am looking to start up in the coming months but I have a question. I understand that a lot of people pay agency fees and pay the cleaner in two transactions - paying the agency fees quaterly for example and then paying the cleaner direct.

I want all of my staff to be self employed but want to make it easy on the customer. I am wondering if a cleaner could collect the full hourly rate (for example £10 per hour from the customer) and pay us the £2 per hour agency fee? Or would this affect the payment of their tax as they are in effect earning more money gross(£10 per hour instead of £8). Would it be legal for me to collect the fee from the cleaner or does it have to be paid direct by the customer to me?

I have considered taking payment from the customer and then paying the cleaner minus the agency fee - but that would make me responsible for tax and NI as I am not sure I can pay them myself as they are self-employed and not employees.

I know I have a lot to learn! Hopefully I make sense and someone can help me. Does anyone else have self-employed cleaners, and if so how much do they make?
Website is a work in progress, but check it out. www.silverclean.co.uk

cleaning-team

  • Posts: 66
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 04:01:03 pm »
I am looking to start up in the coming months but I have a question. I understand that a lot of people pay agency fees and pay the cleaner in two transactions - paying the agency fees quaterly for example and then paying the cleaner direct.

I want all of my staff to be self employed but want to make it easy on the customer. I am wondering if a cleaner could collect the full hourly rate (for example £10 per hour from the customer) and pay us the £2 per hour agency fee? Or would this affect the payment of their tax as they are in effect earning more money gross(£10 per hour instead of £8). Would it be legal for me to collect the fee from the cleaner or does it have to be paid direct by the customer to me?

I have considered taking payment from the customer and then paying the cleaner minus the agency fee - but that would make me responsible for tax and NI as I am not sure I can pay them myself as they are self-employed and not employees.

I know I have a lot to learn! Hopefully I make sense and someone can help me. Does anyone else have self-employed cleaners, and if so how much do they make?

What is your definition of self employed? If they are working for you every day and you decide when they work then in the eyes of HMRC they are employed and you become liable for tax and NI etc.

TVCS

  • Posts: 884
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 08:31:44 pm »
I was under the impression that if they (the employee) invoice you for the hours they have worked, than they would then still be classed as self employed.

I am in the position to  look to employ someone and was looking to use self employed staff. I will follow this thread with great interest.
Veni, vidi, vino, splatus.

 (I came, I saw, I drank, I fell over...)

cleaning-team

  • Posts: 66
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 09:06:35 pm »
Taken from http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm#1

As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

    * Do they have to do the work themselves?
    * Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
    * Can they work a set amount of hours?
    * Can someone move them from task to task?
    * Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
    * Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

    * Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
    * Do they risk their own money?
    * Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
    * Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
    * Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
    * Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
    * Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

TVCS

  • Posts: 884
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 06:47:38 pm »
very interesting, thanks for posting. 
Veni, vidi, vino, splatus.

 (I came, I saw, I drank, I fell over...)

dianegreenwood

  • Posts: 275
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 08:50:14 pm »
I would love to have this clarified legally as all I have read about the definitions of self employed versus employed suggest that an agency system cleaning business is breaking the law as even if the cleaners do send in invoices they are not really self employed.

However, I know there are agencies out there.  Personally I don't like the idea of an agency simply because a) I'm a control freak and b) it must be very hard to keep staff and c) I don't really understand why the staff would work self employed for £8 per hour when they'd actually get more in macdonalds when you take into account holiday pay and their travel, etc, especially if they have to provide their own cleaning stuff.

Are there any agencies on the forum who can clarify?

Cheers

Diane

www.freshlymaid.co.uk




Simply Clean UK

  • Posts: 22
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 11:05:03 pm »
I am personally in the same position as your-self.  About to employ and seriously thinking of doing it via the agency route but charging the cleaner instead of the customer so they are none the wiser to the tax complications and issues.  I have decided to call it a management Fee to the cleaner rather than an agency fee as I will be managing the work for them IE certain paperwork.  This I have decided to charge based on a Percentage of the hourly rate charged. In my case about 35% is the management fee.
Below I have listed the notes from the HMRC webpage and my personal arguments as to why the cleaner is self-employed

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

    * Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
YES - but only if my company employment processes are carried out ie CRB check, 2 References Quality Control
    * Do they risk their own money?
YES – If the customer does not pay them then they loose the income and still have to pay the MANAGEMENT FEE.
    * Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
YES – The cleaner has to pay for ALL there equipment and keep’s 100% of the equipment fee charged to customers if they do not provide there own.
    * Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Yes they get a percentage of the quote no more no less and if it takes them longer then that is out of there pocket.
    * Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
YES – All cleaners when taken on decide what area they wish to do and I advertise for work accordingly.  They quote and decide on whether to take on the contract themselves and negotiate with the customer as to time and dates. If an agreement cannot be reached then the contracted will be OFFERED to another Cleaner.
    * Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
YES – All cleaners are advised that they are free to work for other people including themselve’s and many just work on a PT basis while holding down another PT job. Some of my cleaners I am looking to employ already run small cleaning business but are short on work so SUB-Contract off of me.
    * Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
YES – See point about money at risk.


This way i can charge my customer's less and pay the cleaners more while also keeping my income at an acceptable level
What do you all think????

gordonswindows

  • Posts: 563
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 08:06:13 pm »
I think they would be mad to pay you a fee

All you are doing is "round building" ie door knocking for the cleaner

To pay you for something they can do themselves is just silly

The other side is ,as you point out they can work for anyone well guess who they will get regular work from????? That's right the clients you set them up with

Why? Because the client will ask them directly and not you, why pay you, it's not like you have staff or run a business as the cleaners are self employed. Will you like every other cleaning business does turn up and clean the clients house if the cleaner is I'll etc?

The other reason is the client will pay less and the cleaner will get paid more working together.
Stop trying to dodge your responsibilities to your staff and employ them fairly with holiday pay sick pay and all the other benefits that they deserve oh and get out there yourself and learn what it is really like at the sharp end.

Its not like they say in the blogs or management books 
Don't Give Up
@askforthemoney

dianegreenwood

  • Posts: 275
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 10:02:26 am »
I agree with gordon.  The agency route definitely appears to be the 'easier' way to start and run a cleaning business but its not really a cleaning business fundamentally its just an introduction agency.

One of our strengths is that I know exactly how long it takes to clean a house because I've cleaned hundreds!  My team know I would never ask them to do something I haven't or wouldn't do myself.  And I understand they are THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE in my business. 

Value them or you will lose them.  Or worse, you'll lose clients because they won't care about standards or because clients offer them a better deal than you. 

Cheers

Diane

www.freshlymaid.co.uk


Spotless UK

  • Posts: 11
Re: Pay and Agency Fees
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 09:57:39 am »
Hi Everyone,

I deal with Self Employment schemes for EU nationals. I have fully legal systems in place to support large commerical contracts. (Of which we have a few!) This is particularly useful to people with recruitment problems.

I'm happy to help or provide staff either on an entirely commerical basis or as part of a partnership arrangement. Minimum of six staff.

Kind regards

Garry