[gordons]

Can you tell me in what way you think the new law will affect us w/c? What is the maximum heigh you can climb a ladder without someone supporting it? Do you think this will mean an end to traditional window cleaning. thanks

[windows_chepstow]

Rosskesava is our resident expert, and I'm sure he'll reply when he reads this, but as far as I'm concerned the new law doesn't change a thing.

It might if you employ people and they fall off a ladder and sue you.  But I only employ Wor Lass on the black economy; therefore she won't sue me.

So I think it depends on your circumstances, but I stand to be corrected (probably quite soon).

[s.hughes]

Yes Chepstow is right we'll have to wait for Ross on this one. The thing I have always understood is that it isnt a law as such but a recomendation. This puts more power in the hands of the h/s officer.
Although this has come from Belgium I dont think that they actually uphold it themselves.
Come on Ross where are you mate.

Steveyboy

[gaza]

WINDOWS:how wrong you are,reading a well known trade mag,it was mentioned corp manslaughter,for using cheapness instead of wfp.I hope your using safty systems as well on your ladders,then this new law is being upheld by yourself .
Ihope for your sake you dont have an accident with a member of the public while using your ladders,or drop a blade on their head cus its not funny looking through bars.that could be the outcome .Im using wfp and some upstart is across the street swinging around like a chimp on his ladders telling people how good he is,and that Im an idiot for spending that type of money, picked up 3 new customers today wonder how many he lost?

[AuRavelling79]

Gotta agree with GAZA windows me old mate - and joking aside if Wor Lass did needlessly climb a ladder and fall what you gonna say to your six year old daughter?

[Ian_Giles]

steady now Gaza, you'll have Ross getting apoplectic if he reads your post!
Once you gt him started on the WAHD he'll end up wearing out another keyboard
There are practices that anyone using a ladder should have in place, it isn't going to make an awful lot of difference to the majority of window cleaners doing domestic accounts; not yet at any rate.
There will still be idiots flouting all manner of safety regs.
Should you have an accident and need to claim on your public liability insurance, if you haven't adhered to safe practices you may well find yourself in the do-do.

There is no ban on using ladders, but there are guidlines on there usage.

Once Ross reads this thread all will become as clear as mud, in fairness to him, he has looked into the WAHD more than anyone else on this forum........arguably that is.....


Regards,


Ian

[rosskesava]

Er ... I don't know about being an expert.

As far as I understand it under 6 metres your fine on your own provided you act reasonably but over 6 metres you need to use any needed equipment to stabilise the ladder such as someone at the bottom or ladder matts etc and the legal limit on a ladder is 9 metres.

I can't find anywhere any referance directly to a self employed person working on their own nor is there any legislation banning ladders for w/c's on private properties.

If you're using a ladder on a private resindentual property on your own then basically there is no HSE law. Well there is but it is so hazy to be almost worthless and would be unenforcable anyway.

If you are working for a corporate business then the HSE laws apply and it's up to them to make sure they are applied unless you act in a stupid way or without their awareness that you are working on their site or property.

If you are in patnership with another person and are working together then you both have a duty of care towards each other but as far as I can work out, that duty of care is outside the HSE rules regarding ladders.

The Working at Height Directive is aimed at business's and not so much the small w/c and whatever you read anywhere saying otherwise, I would ask them to state exactly where it written otherwise including the Health and Safety people.

Hi Gaza

A person cannot be charged with manslaughter without being part of a 'corporation' or a company where there are people responsible for Health and Safety and even then, negligence has to be proved first. If an accident is a one off then proving liability is almost impossible unless it was something that was in any way predictable and covered by existing law.

If I die from falling from a ladder then my work partner is not liable unless he had a direct part in the act that led to my demise. i.e. I asked him to help secure the foot of the ladder and he wandered off knowing I was unaware of a risk that he knew about and it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he did in fact know about the risk and I didn't.

Even then it's not Corporate Manslaughter but straight forwards negligence.

Apoleptic........... arghhhhhh.........

Cheers

[gaza]

ROSS:you were the world leader in hse,sorry mate I ve got your crown [zero tolerance not 6 metres six foot was to be the limit but as hse found out most window cleaners are killed from falls of 6 ft or less,in the year 2002/3 70 people were killed in falls from height 30% were window cleaners,4000 people had serious injuries from fall from heights no figures are given for window cleaners but pro rarta 30% would be a good guess,

[gaza]

Ross as lost his crown just found this site Cleaning43.com,SORRY ROSS but put it politely [your wrong] Im never going to read another trade mag again cus you carnt believe what they are saying. A simple guide from http://www.hse.gov.uk. or phone 01787881165 they will tell you about schedule 6 work from temp platforms,not that Ive got the book Ross but like you I do a lot of research. The crowns not big enough for my head

[rosskesava]

Hi Gaza

Don't know about any crown but 11 years of being a H & S rep on the railways taught me a lot about how to look at HSE rules and so on and more importantly, where to look and what to ignore. By that I mean those who will publish bits of something and those who have a vested interest in presenting part of something and in this case, WFP companies. Add to that the scare mongerers who read a bit of something and take that bit as the whole picture. Then there are those who belive what a so called self appointed expert says such as one posting on this forum that claimed 30 000 seriously injured every year.

The best thing to do is find out for yourself and make your own judgement. It takes time and discrimination. I checked it all out because of 'waffle' and curiosity and because I like to comply.

Under 6 foot (2 metres) was the height from which most deaths occured.

That was because from under that height there is no time to sort of prepare as it were to land on your feet. Under 2 metres, unless you have time to try and jump, and if the fall or what causes it is totally unexpected, then the chances are either the hands or the head hits the ground first or both together.

The maximum impact a human can take and survive as in hit a brick wall is 16 mph. Gravity accelerates us at 9.8 metres a second and half that for the first second so a fall from 6 foot could possibly be at 22 mph max. Taking into account the reflective nature of a body to avoid damaging the vital parts, the head and so on, plus the natural inersia of something that has weight and mass, then 6 foot or 2 metres given the needed time taken the adjust oneself to the fall, then curtains is likely if the right condtions are met.

Also, under 6 foot, there can be over confidence that it is a safe height .

Between 2 and 6 metres on the other hand, is the height in which least deaths and serious accidents occured but with more less serious injuries.

Over 6 metres and the accidents are less again but much more serious but with again less deaths.

Over 9 metres and the death rates rises pro rata because the speed at which a person falling is over the magical 43 mph which for some reason is very very important to parachautists even though you land on your feet as opposed to bashing your nut first.

Also, where did you get your figures from? That is so important.

I can give link after link of official links to back up what I'm saying although some run into hundreds of pdf pages.

I have not read any where that 30% of deaths from height were window cleaners.

The biggest cause of death by falling from any height was by those in the decorating industry followed by the construction industry taking into account relative numbers in each trade.

And, you are more likely to die from misuse of a cherry picker than you are from window cleaning using ladders.

And ............ show me one single HSE or WAHD paper that refers directly to self employed window cleaners on private property. They mention the self employed but then give not one direct rule for the self employed and that is one thing the TUC are pushing for on their web site and if they've picked up that point, then maybe there's something in it.

Cheers

[*foxman]

Just a few things.......

I can't find anywhere any referance directly to a self employed person working on their own nor is there any legislation banning ladders for w/c's on private properties.[/i]

You dont need to look far, it's self evident really. If you are Self employed then you are employed[/i] by yourself. The same H+S laws apply if you work for a company or not. It's not a loop hole. You have a duty of care to others and yourself AT ALL TIMES regardless of where you work, private or not.

 The Working at Height Directive is aimed at business's and not so much the small w/c and whatever you read anywhere saying otherwise[/i]

That is basically a very inaccurate statement - The WAHD is aimed at any and everyone 'working at height'  simple as that, there are no 'except for...'  attached. Have a look!

In our industry, and from certain areas, there is a lot of scaremainering solely for financial gain (but it works both ways as we'll see by the end of the year). But saying that, there are also very good reasons for certain practices.
For Example  - Having been involved in a ladder accident over 7 years ago, which resulted in someones death, I have seen enough of the HSE to last a lifetime. Our one saving grace was to immediately invest (and heavily i might add) in the then, fledgling, and very rare Pure Water Sytems available. This one action saved us a prison term and hefty fine. We also went back to school and gained NEBOSH qualifications and become fully fledged H+S officers. The time and money spent has easily paid for itself many times over.

Lesson in all this? Get smart and see the bigger picture, just where are we headed in a few short years.....?

[Ian_Giles]

You see? Once you open the Pandora's box with the label 'WAHD' You get some very interesting replies.
Almost all of them are well thought out and reflect the underlying concerns of us all in how it is going to affect us.

Ultimately, due to the lengthy nature of the regulations much still comes down to interpretation.
We have to remember that window cleaners are in the main, one man businesses.
Most window cleaners do only domestic acounts.
You can legislate till the regs are coming out of your ears, but enforcing these regulations is another ball game altogether.
If a H & S Officer happens on a window cleaner blatently flouting the regulations on a house somewhere in the middle of a housing estate, what so you think is going to be his most likely course of action?
From incidents I PERSONALLY know of, they will give you a severe dressing down and warn you that if you are caught again you may well be prosecuted.

Prosecutions are very expensive remember, and each one takes up many many hours, countless form filling and the use of a great many people are involved.
Now I appreciate I am taking a slightly different tack, the bigger the company, then the more the regs will affect you. If you are an employer then you MUST ensure that your employees are correctly trained, that the equipent they are using is adequate.
There ARE safe practices that we should all use, a great many window cleaners pay little more than lip service to these rules.
If a H & S Officer trailed most window cleaners they could probably catch them flouting the regs at some point during the day.
Ditto decorators and small builders and just about any other 'small' business involved with ladders.
You are unlikely to be prosecuted for breeching the regulations, but you would most certainly be warned if caught.
The prosecutions tend to occur when something bad has already happened.
Remember, I'm not talking about the bigger companies, or those working on sites or doing big commercial work.
Another thing to remember with regards getting prosecuted; If you are up a ladder, it's resting on the UPVC window sill, you are leaning to one side, your one leg dangling at 45 degrees away from your body for balance, you are on the topmost rung and really stretching to reach to topmost corner of the window.
You are of course in breech of the regs, you are most certainly working in a manner that is dangerous, the above description is not an exaggeration either, it happens.
Any H & S Officer observing you working in this manner would have you down that ladder in a trice.
But how could he then have you prosecuted?
It's one small incident.
Burden of proof.
Even if he sat in his car and video'd you, the chances of you being prosecuted for a possibly one off breech is low in the extreme.
Ergo, the most likely outcome is a bollocking. Prosecution is NOT a simple matter, but of course it IS an option.
It's all about education, and then once understanding of H & S regs have been forced into our heads the pressure is applied to comply with the regs.
They mostly make sense, getting that awareness of safe practice to the masses is the tough bit.
The internet and forums like this one help, they pass it on in threads like this one.

Time to go.

Ladders to climb..........well, ok, thats a lie, I don't use them anymore What with all those regulations....


regards,


Ian

[gaza]

well said that manYOUVE SEEN ME AT WORK AVE YOU THEN I WAS THAT MAN YOU DECRIBED,TILL I FELL 16 FEET HEAD FIRST INTO A YORKSHIRE WALL, Im lucky to be here,the only fall Im going to have now is over a pipe,even convinced my wife the money is well spent nearly got a divorce because of the money Ive spent. If your wondering why Im not at work yet waiting to contact a man from council re 3,000 squid contract waterering flowers in the summer for the council during the summer,a nother good earner for wfp men, a customer used to do it and was looking to pack it in hes put my name to a man and that man is suppose to phone me before 10 oclock so check your council out for an oppertunity like this you wfp men/women
                                                                                 

[pjulk]

I just want to know one thing regarding the TWAH directive.

When i pick new customers up i tell them.
Due to change's in the law restricting work that can be done from a ladder and for our own safety we will clean your windows with a water fed pole system.

If They say we have seen people still use ladders i say that they can still use them with safety devices but would put extra time on a a job so the price would have to go up.

Am i misleading anyone saying the above as i don't want that and them thinking im liaing in 6 months time or so. Or if they see me up a ladder doing a job thats not suitable for WFP. But when i use ladders i now use safety mats.

Paul

[windows_chepstow]

Gotta agree with GAZA windows me old mate - and joking aside if Wor Lass did needlessly climb a ladder and fall what you gonna say to your six year old daughter?

I'd say, 'Mum's dead, but never mind; she's well insured and we're off on holiday to Miami and I'll find you a new Mummy.'

Anyway, Wor Lass only does the bottoms.  I'm more at risk from her kicking the ladders from beneath me when she's approaching 'red flag week'.

Also, I'm preparing to go WFP; so there!  Wor Lass has even banned me from speaking about it; she says I'm a bore!  I'm now boring customers. 

This morning I explained to one customer who'd sacked his last window cleaner for doing a bad job with a WFP how they actually worked; and how they're far safer than climbing ladders.

He told me a few years back he fell of a ladder while painting his house and just before he hit the ground he put an arm out.  His arm snapped and the bone stuck out from the skin (compound fracture).

I couldn't believe after suffering an injury like that falling from a ladder; that he sacked his last window cleaner for using a WFP!  Even if his windows were left covered in spots.

[rosskesava]

Hi Foxman

You dont need to look far, it's self evident really. If you are Self employed then you are employed by yourself. The same H+S laws apply if you work for a company or not. It's not a loop hole. You have a duty of care to others and yourself AT ALL TIMES regardless of where you work, private or not.

The H & S are laws certainly are different in the work place to to the self employed individual working on private property.

A company has to look out for an employees safety and has a duty to instruct that empoyee and the employee has a duty to act within his understanding. As a self employed person there is no one responsible for instructing me as to what constitutes a safe working practice other than me unless I am working as a contractor or sub contractor in any shape, manner or form.

The Health and Safety rules take into account the job being done and where it is being done and the person doing it. Cleaning windows at someones house once a month as self employed is very different to someone working for a company cleaning windows on the companies behalf on or off their property.

If that were not so, then there would be no w/c's using ladders and it would have been on the news that ladders are now banned. I have not read anywhere that ladders are banned and has anyone else read that on any official document?

That is my main point. Ladders have not been banned. So that must mean they can still be used and it is how they are used that is important in terms of the WAHD.

If a company gets someone to use a ladder when another safer means is available then they are breaking the law. If a ladder is the only practical option then that company must take precautions that it's use is done the safest possible way.

If me as a self employed person decides to use a ladder to clean someones windows then I have broken no law unless I am acting irresponsibly. If over 6 metres I use ladder mats and so on, then I'm taking reasonable precautions.

If you think otherwise, then show any link to any official website that states the opposite of what I've posted above.

The only real law is the 9 metre rule. Just try and buy a ladder that goes over 9 metres anywhere commercial. I do understand there are a few specialist industries that require the use of ladders that go over 9 metres but they have other safety measures for that. (i.e. the Fire Brigade)

Anyway, most deaths from ladder falls occur UNDER 2 metres. So ban step ladders.

And yes, as I wrote, the WAHD is aimed more at the business's like the construction industry. Just read any official documentation that goes with the WAHD and not what some WFP company is churning out who are pursuing their own vested business interests. (I don't blame them though)

H & S legislation is always first aimed at business because they tend to put profit before safety. If they didn't then there would be no Health and Safety Exectitive. A self employed person like a w/c tends (generally) to be a bit more sensible. Also, is it more easily enforced in the workplace and more accidents occur there anyway and it's easier to act if an accident occurs.

My own veiw of ladders is they are dangerous and I hate using them. I can't wait to go over to WFP's which hopefully is only now a few weeks away. I hope.

Phew... that's it. No more posting from me about the WAHD. It's easy for anyone to find out. Get a phone book and phone someone and ask or e mail the HSE website. I did.

Cheers

Ross

[dai]

It would be interesting to know how the figures break down. Do all these accidents concern wc pro's or people injured cleaning windows?
Most people that have ladder accidents don't go up them very often. That's a fact.
We spend more time practising going up ladders than a cicus tight rope walker.
If we avoid complacency,  take sensible precautions and acces the risks we can cut down but not eliminate accidents. Wait till some guy gets electricuted when his pole touches a live wire. One new hazzard I'v encountered recently is customers covering the  garden with pebbles and leaving the original flagstones in place. You might as well put ball bearings under your ladder. If your doing a new job make sure you know what's under the pebbles.
I spent more time getting cuts and other injuries treated when I worked in an engineering tool room, than ever I do window cleaning. In fact that's true of every other job I'v done. Dai

[gaza]

you are sub contracted to the house owner.so they must be liable for your safety?

[gaza]

DAI :Ihad just put my ladder up against the wall and bending down to put water on my mop head,when I noticed under the bark chippings one of those black plastic like coverings under neath ,God only knows what would have happened if I haddent spotted it,so be warned about tree bark

[rosskesava]

Hi Gaza again

The law as to what defines 'contracted' or 'sub contracted' are complex. Generally it means either a written contract or a set of rules or conditions that have to be met before payment is made or a set of rules, condition, actions, etc that have to be carried out.

With a private house and doing a monthly clean, the agreement is on a monthly basis between the owner and the w/c and if either cancels, the there is no redress in a court of law and the agrrement is on a non committal basis so it is not contracted or sub contracted.

It is simply an agreement that if the w/c does the windows, and the owner is happy, then the owner pays the w/c.

I know the thing with bark chippings. A customer had put some over a big sheet of plastic to make her garden look good. Fortunately, the ladder slid before anyone was on it.

Cheers