[woodman]

Hi Guys and Gals,

We all know ,I think about the benefits of using Dry Fusion in commercial situations and having seen a demo
I must say I was  very impressed with its performance.

BUT:

Can't see the benefits in domestic situations especially as there is no tool or agreed methods for Stairs and upholstery.

What do any Fusioneers out there think, do you use this system in domestics successfully or do you use a combination of systems.

I 'd be interested to know

[Musicman]

I actually took Dry Fusion out to a commercial property today for a demo. They made an incredibly filthy canteen carpet look like brand new within minutes and without too much effort.

I was VERY impressed, as was the client.

Drying time is 30 minutes and no wicking back of stains (so I'm told).

I understand that their licensed operators use other methods for stairs and upholstery.

Jim Lynch's post under Carpet Dry Clean refers to the oscillating pad system which looks very similar - and the site he refers to - ccsop.com offers alternative methods of cleaning stairs.

Musicman

[Mike Halliday]

When we talk about commercial carpets we usually mean low profile Nylon & polypro' . these fibres have a high degree of stain resistance so most soil will 'wipe off'.

I've yet to be made a believer that great results can be achieved on wool, wool-mix & deep pile carpets with any bonnet system, the appearance can be improved but they won't clean the carpet

this is just my opinion

Mike

[Musicman]

Hi Mike, I hear what you are saying and am the first to admit that not being a carpet technician I couldn't tell you what the fibre construction of the carpet was, but it's pretty much the same as all other commercial carpets so I guess you are right.

However, when I met the client a month or so ago she had just had the carpets cleaned using HWE and the stains had wicked back straight after - in fact I found it hard to believe that they had been cleaned at all.

This could be due to the cleaner rather than the system but all I can go on is the results - and there was a huge difference.

You have made reference to the cleaning pie and with Dry Fusion you have the heat, the time, the chemical and the agitation so why shouldn't it work? You yourself questioned whether you could increase one element and reduce another and still get the same result.

Why not get them to do a domestic demo to see what can be achieved? After all many of you guys couldn't get you heads around CFR but you seem to swear by it now.

Musicman

[Mike Halliday]

Music man, the cleaning Pie needs another very important ingrediant before cleaning can take place, extraction eg Flow or 'absorption',  you can have heat, chemical, time & agitation but the actual cleaning does'nt happen until the dirt starts coming out of the carpet.

like you say, a lot of it goes on the man using the HWE equipment. the last cleaner might have been a bit of a cowboy.

Is everyone still believing that the Dry fusion machine produces anough heat to make any differance to the cleaning :?

I have  used the machine and put my hand on the bonnet it never get more than warm.

Mike

[Ken Wainwright]

The heat thing with the Dry Fusion equipment is very confusing.  At first, like Mike, I couldn't understand that the pad never felt particularly warm never mind hot. And to be honest, my supplier Nationwide (pre Dry Fusion UK) weren't particularly good at explaining it to me. If you're unsure and you're not particularly fond of your fingers, then try the temperature on the drive plate. BEWARE, IT IS VERY VERY HOT!!!  If you were to use a cotton pad, then this would absorb the heat and retain it, not allowing it through to the carpet.  Then one day it all clicked. The pad material and construction is designed to allow the heat through into the carpet where it's needed, not to remain in the pad.  If you feel the carpet when it's been cleaned, it will feel quite warm. With all HWE equipment, whether T/M or portable, there is significant heat loss between the machine and the spray tip. With D/F there's also the inevitable heat loss, but the distance between the heat source and the carpet is minimal. So minimal heat loss.  Apart from being a catalyst to the cleaning process, with Dry Fusion it is also used to cure the protector, as the formulation wont cure to the air.

[Mike Halliday]

WARNING: LONG BORING POST

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So Ken you're saying Dry Fusion have changed the laws of physics!!.

let me refresh your memory of school boy physics ( since school was a long time ago for you )

heat is transfered in 3 different ways; conduction, convection & radiation. for the heat to transfer from the drive plate to the carpet it must use one of these 3 methods.

As you don't have to wear a lead apron when using dry fusion we can rule out radiation

Convection causes heat to rise, so again this can be ruled out because the carpet is below the drive plate.

this leaves conduction. Conduction is the passage of heat through physical contact, this is how the heat from the drive plate passes into the pad and then reaches the carpet. so it is impossible for the carpet to reach a higher temp' than the pad. heat cannot pass 'through' the pad.

here endeth the lesson for today

Mike

[Ken Wainwright]

Mike

You forget that the drive plate has cut outs. There is also a fan. When the fan blows it heats up the drive plate to a high temperature. The conduction will transfer heat from the hotter drive plate to the cooler pad which will then pass it on to the cooler carpet. It's conduction all the way, but with assistance from the fan. If it didn't work, the carpet would be cold to the touch instead of warm.

If you paid attention to the whole of your physics lesson, you will remember that different substances will absorb, retain and dissipate heat at differing rates. Even the colour can effect this. Did you ever do the experiment whereby you heated a piece of metal then measured how quickly it dissipated the heat? I can remember doing it with copper which absorbed the heat quickly and retained it, but cooled slowly.  But if it was painted black it also dissipated the heat quickly. Hence the differing properties of different substances. With Dry Fusion, the pad material (Turan) has been selected because it absorbs the heat quickly but also dissipates it quickly into the carpet.
Here endeth the second lesson

[Ivar_Haglund]

I have never seen this dry fusion thing done

What is the secret kryptonite or something?

I dont understand

[Derek]

Mike and Kenneth

Now, Now boys...steady...

The wick back from a HWE clean would indicate that the carpet was possibly not pre-vacuumed thoroughly enough or not at all.
Maybe another contributory factor was also overwetting.

The bonnet systems surely 'all' generate some degree of heat through friction although the DF system does have its own unique additional heat feature.

Could it be that the extraction systems reach further down into the carpet thereby creating a wick back situation whilst the bonnet systems tackle the surface pile?
Removal of 'real' soil .. how on earth can this really be evaluated without 'digging a chunk' (technical term) out of the carpet for analysis?

Aren't we simply relying on the perceived cleaniliness here?

Derek
 

[woodman]

Hi Ken,

Do you use DF for domestics and if so how do you clean the stairs? Do you use the mits that they supply or have you found another method.

[Ken Wainwright]

"Woody"

I use D/F for residentials a) If it suits me or b) if there are technical issues which call for it's use.  A clasic example today. I was in a sheltered accomodation complex. Lots of steps, security doors etc. After pre-vac I was able to arrange the lounge to be cleaned in 2 halves. D/F was the easiest option plus the old gentleman wasn't too mobile. Polyprop cut pile of good bedroom quality but not great for a lounge. Turned the heat down a little and achieved excellent results. Customer happy and safety issue re. walking into vinyl floor kitchen discussed and dealt with. I'm happy. Even threw the hall in f.o.c as I didn't need to use an extra pad.

STAIRS

Dry Fusion can't really clean stairs can it? Does that tichy little hand pad really work?  You can bet it does! Just make sure it's kept adequately wet with fresh solution. On the commercial maintenance I do, the stairs are a breeze and sooooo quick with the hand pads. I use them also on 2 sites where I bonnet mop with One Step and they work a treat. With restorative cleaning and all residentials, it does take a little more time but it's still probably as quick or maybe quicker than HWE. Your arms ache a bit afterwards  though. To cure the protector on stairs, I've got an old domestic quality Pifco steamer which fits nicely inside the mit. I go over the stairs again when I've finished the cleaning.

Derek

The growth of Low Moisture Cleaning in the commercial world has been greatly encouraged by the use of the low profile loop tiles and carpet. In most cases it is generally accepted that greater customer satisfaction can be achieved with a LMC maintenance plan. HWE, whilst removing more soil than any other system, has a problem with wick back primarily because these floorcoverings do not allow for a good water recovery. Much of the water applied through the wand remains in the carpet, and turns much of the particulate soil into a mud which results in a potential for serious wick back problems upon drying. Even the best pre-vacuuming technique in the world will not remove much of this trapped soil. Pile lifters don't appear to perform much better either, and advise given is that these machines should not be used on loop tiles as they can easily be damaged along the edges. In reality, the type of work we get on maintenance office carpets is more to remove beverage stains than actual soil build up.

[Mike Halliday]

And the winner for the 2003 booker prize for fiction goes to ..............

KEN WAINWRIGHT

What we need is for Which magazine to do an impartial test on carpet cleaning systems so we can see the truth behind all the hype surrounding some claims made by the new L/M/C companies.

Mike

[Ken Wainwright]

I'd agree with you to a point Mike, about independant appraisal, but even then it wouldn't be of much use. I'm sure that you, like most other seasoned professionals on these forums, have witnessed situations similar to those above where, especially on low profile loop, HWE has removed more soil but it doesn't look good, and a LM system has removed less but looks superb. Which does the customer prefer?

PS
My publisher wants to know which bit is fiction? I do retain my rights to copyright on all fictional work. I can recommend my man for a good deal when you've completed your book. Is the working title still  Confessions of a Carpet Cleaner

[Paul_Elliott]

Mike,

When you went to the States, did you see the OP machine in action?

Paul.