[Ian Lancaster]

Just got my copy of "Cleaning & Maintenance".  On page 17 & 20 is an article about how good is your Pure Water system.

Apart form the writer's insistence that a water softener is essential (I looked into the costs very carefully, and the type he recommends would cost as much as several membranes) he also mentions a "break tank" and states that this is now a legal requirement on static systems.

Does anyone know what a "break tank" is, what it does and how it works?

He also states that some sort of automatic shut off on the holding tank is now a legal requirement.  Does anyone know if this is true?  I use a time switch, which I prefer because when it shuts the system down, it won't start up again if the water level in the tank drops.  I prefer to wait till the tank is 3/4 empty, then flush and reset the system to fill up again.

Cheers,

Ian

[*foxman]

Apart form the writer's insistence that a water softener is essential (I looked into the costs very carefully, and the type he recommends would cost as much as several membranes) h

Nonsense. You don't need a water softener at all - its for use in the home. What do they think Prefilters and membranes do??

[Pj]

I have talked to various water softener companies and they all say it is legal requirement to have a "break tank" if you use a booster pump.

I then phoned the Water Company to find out if that is so, and they wouldn't tell me without sending a technician out to test and inspect the water.

A break tank - So, you run water from your mains into a "holding tank" or "break tank" then you draw water from that via booster pump into RO and onward.  That is the regs, anyone else keeping to them?

[DASERVICES]

Ian did you see the other comment, " We would like to see the FED and AWPC putting forward a code of practise covering the basics of water treatment."

[[GQC] Tim]

I have talked to various water softener companies and they all say it is legal requirement to have a "break tank" if you use a booster pump.

I then phoned the Water Company to find out if that is so, and they wouldn't tell me without sending a technician out to test and inspect the water.

A break tank - So, you run water from your mains into a "holding tank" or "break tank" then you draw water from that via booster pump into RO and onward.  That is the regs, anyone else keeping to them?

Never heard of that. Strange.

[chris@c.m.s]

It did used to be writen in the water bylaws that you cant use a pump to increase water pressure directly from the mains, however it does depend how much extra water you are drawing from the mains I think.
the reason for it as far as I can remember is that it could cause back syphonige and a decrease in pressure supplied to nearby property's. don't quote me on it though its been 10 years since I was Plumbing things change and I'm now blissfully unaware of what the modern rules allow.       

[windowwashers]

every outside tap now finded has to have a non return vale fitted, so it will stop the back wash

[Wayne Thomas]

I have talked to various water softener companies and they all say it is legal requirement to have a "break tank" if you use a booster pump.

I then phoned the Water Company to find out if that is so, and they wouldn't tell me without sending a technician out to test and inspect the water.

A break tank - So, you run water from your mains into a "holding tank" or "break tank" then you draw water from that via booster pump into RO and onward.  That is the regs, anyone else keeping to them?

I do that anyway. I didn't realise it was a requirement to do so.

[Ian Lancaster]

So presumably this break tank would have to have a ballcock to shut off the supply when the tank is full?  But if your booster pump draws more water than will pass through a ballcock then you will very quickly empty the break tank.

Is there another way to control the water coming into the break tank?

[windowwashers]

So presumably this break tank would have to have a ballcock to shut off the supply when the tank is full?  But if your booster pump draws more water than will pass through a ballcock then you will very quickly empty the break tank.

Is there another way to control the water coming into the break tank?

thats a very valid point Ian sort of defeats the object dont you think

[Ian Lancaster]

So presumably this break tank would have to have a ballcock to shut off the supply when the tank is full?  But if your booster pump draws more water than will pass through a ballcock then you will very quickly empty the break tank.

Is there another way to control the water coming into the break tank?

thats a very valid point Ian sort of defeats the object dont you think

I think that the mains supply would deliver enough water to satisfy the demands of the booster pump, otherwise the pump would be struggling as it tried to draw more water than was coming through the pipe, but if the supply is restricted by a ballcock (anyone who's ever looked into their cistern in the loft while the bathroom cold taps are open will see that the level in the cistern drops rapidly) then the supply won't keep up with the demand.

If the break tank could be fed by a valve with an internal diameter of at least 1/2" without any obstruction in the valve (like a gate valve) then the supply should be sufficient.

Anybody got a bright idea as to how this could be achieved? Bearing in mind that the supply has to be stopped when the level is reached.

[chris@c.m.s]

You can get higher flow ball valves but whether they would keep up with the demand I don't know, again it comes down to another one of those flow vs pressure conundrums that I personally cant be bothered to  work out so mines on the mains.     

[Village Gleam]

My opinion,
It's aimed at siphonage, I run a booster and the reason I do is not to increase the flow but to increase the pressure. I believe the water companies would be concerned if the flow was too great.

My booster is not directly connected, a hose is in between.

It is a good idea that not just a code of practice in simple langauge should be available but also best practice. You would have thought that the orginisations mentioned would have been the relevant ones ( in consultation with DEFRA) however both seem to have a problem in exercising any kind of responsible and effective industry leadership.

[Wayne Thomas]

I have an IBC tank which collects rainwater from the gutter of my house. I've added a 1 inch hose from my outside tap to the top of my IBC lid. I have an overflow on the top of my IBC tank. I leave my IBC tank full in the mornings when I go to work incase they have been digging up the road close by because they are forever digging up the mains water supply by accident on a regular basis because of the sheer volume of heavy haulage using the road close by. I have a 1 inch hose from the bottom of my IBC tank  connected permanently to my booster pump.
In the evenings when I get home I turn on my outside tap (mains supply), disconnect the outlet on my RO, turn on my booster pump and flush out my RO for 5 mins. Connect my RO up on the outlet side again and put the timer on fitted at the mains outlet. 2-3hrs later my tank in the van is filled and the mains water is turned off by the timer. In all the time my mains water is on, the water level in my IBC tank remains the same. My pump never runs dry because the water level remains constant in my IBC tank. However, if I forget to fill my tank up early evening when I get home because I've crashed out on the sofa or gone out for the evening and have to fill up late at night, the mains pressure is much, much higher, so it overflows in my IBC tank whilst I'm running water through my RO.

[Jon-scwindows]

i think the holding tank to supply the booster pump is to protect the pump, i dont see why it would be the 'legal requirement'
i dont think the tank will run out quicker than the water supply can fill the tank because the booster pump may be able to supply more water than the outside tap, but it doesnt go through the ro and di as quickly, and by the time the volume of water in the holding tank has gone through the pump your van tank will be pretty much full and the holding tank will have filled atleast half way anyway.
That is what i am going to have on my system.

[Wayne Thomas]

FAO: jon-sc windows:

I've just been looking at your website. Some good ideas there. Refer a friend is a good idea. Do you still offer a free clean if the new clean for another customer is a smaller clean or a one off clean or do you offer a free clean after say three washes?
I like your online quote filling form for domestic customers. Do you ever get any customers forget to include some windows? If so, do you point out to them on your visit that your price will change to reflect the extra windows they forgot to mention. I'm thinking of doing similar. I was thinking of doing a photoquote although I do like your idea.

[Jon-scwindows]

Hey,
      yes i still havent got round to finishing off my website with picts and stuff, theres allot missing as of yet and not quite looking how i want, im building it on a ridiculous site builder.
I have had 1 refer a friend request from my website in 4 months, and that was by a non existing customer! but thats fine because they are now customers.
I offer the free clean according to my terms and conditions, which is minimum 3 clean contract, otherwise i just email them quotes. Im thinking of changing it to just free window cleaning to make things easier, as i say allot to be done on my website, though the main thing is the quote forms. These have been very good, with around 1-2 new customers per month from this, about 8 or 9 from starting the website about 4 months ago. I havent had any who didnt accept my quote. When i get the form info from them, i quote according to the size of the property and how long i think it will take based on all the info they give me. I havent had any bad jobs from this, or any underpriced, i charge what i quote, there is enough info given to charge correctly. Handy having the 'had window cleaner before?' question because then you dont have problems with previous prices. One of the form elements is approx # windows, so not charged per window etc..
I have yet to do the commercial page, but doubt i will get any commercial customers this way. One residential customer sent me pictures too, just to help quote, i might add a upload picture bit in the quote form, but easy enough. They obviously prefer this easier method than phoning up.

[Wayne Thomas]

Jon-sc windows,
thank-you for your input. 'Handy having the had window cleaner before' part ........in what way do you mean? I can understand how you aren't trying to be competitely priced because of the previous w/c but can't see how it's beneficial to know if your potential customer had a previous w/c. Would you care to explain more. I'm always willing to learn from others with better ideas than me.

[Jon-scwindows]

i just thought it would be handy knowing then you can charge what you like, and also helps because if you know theyve had a window cleaner before, the windows shouldnt be too bad, or if they havent, all contributes to your quote, and what the cleaning is going to be like, especially for first cleans, if they have been done before they are most likely to be by a trad window cleaner. I just thought it helps me out.

[Neil Williams]

CRACKED IT
Building regs / the law whatever is aimed at stopping people having a huge booster pump fitted within the building's SOLID mains system without putting some protection in ie the holding tank.
The water companies usea pump to move the water around. If you fitted a super huge booster into your mains what would happen is that it would overtake the mains pressure and SUCK water out of the mains system so causing cavitation and other problems for the rest of your street and neighbourhood. You could fit one of these pumps but by having a holding tank once you've sucked all that water out you can't then suck on the mains system.
At the end of the day our small booster pumps can't even suck in the sides of a plastic hosepipe never mind solid copper pipes.
This is more clever marketing /scare mongering so we rush out and buy more expensive equipment.