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STEVE71163

THE NFMW&GC, WAHD, A FRAME EXTENSION LADDERS
« on: October 29, 2004, 02:57:59 pm »
I don’t know how many members we have here who use double extension A frame ladders but I would like to know how many of you realise that with regard to the working at height directive the use of this ladder may well be put in question in the future.
 
Could any members that use this type of ladder give me some feedback regarding the positive and negative safety aspects of this ladder as I would like to take your comments to the executive council meeting on the 6th December  with the intention of asking the executive council to take our feedback to the Health and Safety executive and ladder manufacturers to represent our members on this issue.
 
Steve

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: THE NFMW&GC, WAHD, A FRAME EXTENSION LADDERS
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2004, 11:32:35 am »
I have used a double A-Frame extension ladder, and it did have splayed feet at the bottom.  It was generally easier to position and work with than an open-top, though I did find that you need to extend it higher than you would have needed to for an open-top.  To me this meant that a longer A-Frame would be needed to do the same job as a shorter open-top, but that's not a problem.

I was worried it would twist, but it didnt.  Indeed, it felt more stable than an open-top, mostly because, as the rubber pad jams into the top corner, it wasn't going to slide sideways the way open-tops do if you lean them on guttering for example.  But, just because of personal preference, I liked open-tops better, but only because I was used to using them.  Perhaps if I'd used a pointer from the start I'd think they were the best.

My personal opinion is that they are probably safer than open-tops, but from a manufacturers point of view, there is a single important reason why I could see them disappearing:

Practically the only market for pointer ladders is window cleaners.  I have never seen anyone use a pointer who is not a window cleaner.  Indeed, the Federation's logo is a pointer ladder because its something immediately associated with window cleaning.  This is a problem because window cleaners are moving away from ladders and towards water-fed poles.

Yes there will probably always be those who use ladders, and among those will be a proportion who use pointers, but there's no denying the market for them is disappearing fast.

A good set of splayed pointers is considerably more expensive than the same length of open-tops, therefore only the more serious window cleaners would buy them.  But window cleaners that are willing to spend more money to get the safest ladder are also the type who will once again put safety first and invest in a WFP system.

There will be a critical point where the number sold per year will drop to a point that it costs more to produce them than the profit they bring in.  Ladder companies will see (or already have seen) this coming and will simply discontinue them.

So, not the HSE nor any new regulations will see the end of the pointer, but MARKET FORCE will decide in the end.  Ladder manufacturers probably know that pointers are safer and better for window cleaning than open-tops, but if they can't make a profit producing them, then why should they continue? 

To give an example of how this has happened before, look at 50ft ladders.  These used to be reasonably easy to purchase.  Now, you would have to hunt pretty hard to find one.  Most ladder manufacturers stopped producing them a long time ago.  Why?  Because any job where you need to be 50 ft up these days is done using rope-access, which is much safer than balancing on a 50ft ladder.  Therefore the market for them no longer exists.  New techniques were developed which were safer and more popular.

Open-top ladders however, are used by hundreds of trades, so regardless of what window cleaners decide, they will be around for a long time yet.

Interestingly, the accident statistcs for window cleaners using ladders included in the TWAH proposal document do not distinguish between those that used normal or pointer ladders, therefore there is no concrete evidence that window cleaners who use pointers are any more safe than those using open-tops.  Simply approaching the HSE with the comment that pointer ladders are safer will not be enough.  You would have to provide verifiable evidence that they are safer in order for them to consider amending the new regulations to specifically mention them.

This would mean commissioning laboratory tests and a broad survey of users (at least 10% of UK users).  It would be a considerable project, and even if you successfully completed it, there's no guarantee that the HSE would accept your findings.  They may simply say that perhaps they are safER, but they are still not safe enough to be granted any exemption.  Or, they might say that pointers fall into their definition of a "LADDER" and are not special equipment, therefore regardless of any evidence you provide, they are still subject to the normal ladder regulations.

Pointers are probably safer than normal ladders, but to defend working on them on the basis that they are not a normal ladder in the face of the TWAH directive is, in my opinion, missing the point completely.  The very essence of the document is to avoid working at height where possible.

As I believe that the industry would best be served by as much work-at-height restriction as possible (especially as regards ladders), I would not support any effort to have a special dispensation for pointer ladders.  Also, I would consider it highly irresponsible for the federation to try to have more lenient guidelines for these ladders put in place.  If this were to happen, the Federation would be responsible for yet more unnecessary deaths in an industry already plagued with an appalling safety record.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton

elfords

  • Posts: 112
Re: THE NFMW&GC, WAHD, A FRAME EXTENSION LADDERS
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2004, 08:01:19 pm »
Hi Philip,

You have made some interesting comments the only thing that you have not really covered is the issue of accessing interior windows,  which is there area where I cannot see any other alternative to using the pointer ladder accept in the rare case where you could use an internal reach & vac type wfp system, as lon as it is cost effective and space allows. The other thing that is worth saying is that on interiors you are not affected by things such as wind and uneven ground etc.
Gary

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: THE NFMW&GC, WAHD, A FRAME EXTENSION LADDERS
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2004, 08:43:53 pm »
 ;) The fact is,you will never be able to dismiss ladders total,why because at some point ,some time you need them,they are a part of our Industry,health and safety yes of course :D but lets get real about our trade and what we all do in our daily life :D ie when was the last time you saw window cleaners van with out any ladders ??? I rest my case ???
simply tools of our trade,along with wfps....
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
BURNING RUBBER FASTER!
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Philip Hanson

  • Posts: 652
Re: THE NFMW&GC, WAHD, A FRAME EXTENSION LADDERS
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2004, 07:21:56 pm »
Quote
just that they are tested the same as open tops.

I hear what you are saying with regard to working indoors, and I agree.  Ladders are almost always the best choice.

I also understand that you think they should be tested the same as open tops, but I don't understand why.

Lets say for the sake of argument that that as a result of pressure the HSL tested pointers and found them to be safer than open tops.  That's good, that confirms what we always thought, but then what?  There's no point in doing it if you arent then going to use the results to make a case for something.

If, after proving that they are safer, you don't then try to have more lenient guidelines put in place, I don't understand what the point of pressing them to do the testing is.

-Philip
Editor, Professional Window Cleaner Magazine

"The irony of the information age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion"
John Lawton