[Alex Gardiner]

Quote.
The retail value of the MAP F-16 and the 8M Zensorflex poles is about £320, whereas the value of the sections in the same lengths of the Super-Lite is about £720, hence the greater elastic rating of the sections 20 compared to 18 for the F-16.  This is in no way trying to put off people making a DIY featherlite, just it really does pay to buy a slightly higher quality 16 metre pole as you will be amazed at the difference in performance."

A. So the difference is £400 for 5"  @16ft what is the diff at 60ft ? what about the vat ?
The elstic rating of fishing poles has nothing to do with the strength/lightness ratio- its to do with the elasticity/thickness of the fishing line strain on the No1 section(which we discard) the pole can take.

Hi Jeff,

Quoting the retail value was to give a guide as the quality of the components we use not what we sell it for. We actually sell the pole for £565.  This includes an aluminium carbon fibre gooseneck (£40), jetted lightweight brushhead (£13.50), hose and connector (£16), adjustable end bung (£6), pre-treated end tips and non-jamming joint modification (£30, which we can add to any Super-Lite/featherlite pole), insulated base section (£13), velcro ties (£3), can of end tip treatment spray (£6) and full operating manual.  This makes our Super-Lite retail price of the actual pole sections to be £437.50.  The difference between featherlite and Super-Lite pole sections is actually only £117.50.

I measured the flex difference at  just 16ft because the flex was already noticeable.

[Jeff Brimble]

TDW  your first reply to this topic is missing ?

[stuart@skypole]

Alex,

im glad you read my post as contructive critisism and not a dig like i said i can see what your trying to do but think its not the correct thing

for eg bwca are there to train us window cleaners and offer help although they only show you there way with there (ionic) equipment

for this type of idea like the training it should be done independent from manufactures and suppliers

rgds
stuart

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Stuart,

It's always good to bounce ideas around.

I have tried to rate the poles as a user not as a supplier. We still have a very large commercial and domestic window cleaning business and I spend at least 2 days of every week working full on with WFP.  Because of this I am able to maintain a good perspective on the products without even thinking about which has a better 'mark up'.

I realise that as a supplier our firm will be perceived as having a 'bias' and that's fair enough, but I really have tried to set this up as a help to my customers. I have been thinking today, (whilst working for 3 hours with a 40ft Super-Lite, 1 hour with a 20ft Universal, 10mins with an 18ft Extender and 10 mins with a 12ft 'Tele-Lite' pole), that perhaps I could set up a benchmark comparison test. This after all would offer a definitive guide not just subjective. I tried to do this with the Super-Lite and Feather-Lite comparison, side by side, taking an actual measurement of flexile difference, although the subjective usage test was actually even more revealing. So perhaps a combination might work.

It's an idea that I think will grow and grow.

Thanks for your feedback Stuart,

Alex

[Jeff Brimble]

Hi Alex, putting it simply using your figures ,

Quote  “We actually sell the pole for          £565 ” … +vat    = £663
 
I provide my featherlite service  for £10/ft £450 …. no vat = £450

Diy complete for                                 £309.99 inc vat    £309.99

However. The featherlite at 2.82kg (6.2lb) (60ft)complete is still the lightest  pole in the market.

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Jeff,

Your way is cheaper, no doubt.  The reason that I bought a featherlite on your guidance was to see whether we needed to change our suppliers of pole sections, we buy so many of them at a time we are able to arrange very good trade discounts. My aim was to be able to reduce the price to customers of a Super-Lite.

 Having tried both types now though I can see why we pay more for our Super-Lite sections and I am happy to continue with our current supplier. I realise that some will not be able to see where the price difference goes and because of that they will go elsewhere, but that is life and a free market.

I am also going to go out into the workshop and re-weigh both the Super-Lite and the Feather-Lite sections to see what the difference is, it seems that our 2 assessments of weight do not tie up. I'll let you know.

Whether it's a Super-Lite or a Featherlite, they are still the only pole to be working with in my opinion.

Alex

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Jeff,

I have been out in the workshop with my accurate postage scales and here are the results of the weigh in.

These are for Pole sections only, without gooseneck or brush and without any foam filling etc.

Featherlite at              Super-Lite at
40ft = 1636g               40ft = 1588g

Super-Lite is 48g lighter


60ft = 2780g               60ft = 2896g

Featherlite is 116g lighter.

By these weights your 60ft pole will need to have a brush/gooseneck weighing just 40g to hit your quoted weight of 2.82kg, is that right?

The gooseneck and brush combo we use weighs 356g on top of the above weights.


Whilst the elastic rating does apply mainly to the top sections the whole pole does have to be rated to take the same strain. On the Featherlite  base sections they are clearly marked elastic 18, the Super-Lites are rated at 20 which is why they are more rigid in use.

I have now had to re-assess my Super-Lite published weights because the Pole was lighter than I thought!

I hope that this clarifies the weight situation.

Regards
Alex

[Jeff Brimble]

Funny enough I have been doing some experiments(its raining again), I am sure that the average reader is not interested in grams or inches but that the poles are a pleasure to use. Whoever makes them.

I have to abide by your figures for now as I am not there. You have used a slightly different criteria and my kitchen scales may not be 100% accurate, my reading for a 60fter was  2.82kg @ 60ft. Whats the weight of yours a@60ft ?  ps. I do not use Map parallel extensions. 
 I make it that your brush a £1.49 (Asda) Bentley brush and an adjustable, modified Unger elbow joint complete weigh 322gm. But will check my figures.. (I just used one of the parallel extensions and multiplied the weight by 3)

 Re 5" sag,   Measured from the horizontal using the No3 section zensorflx and the No4 short section Map etc I make The difference in sag 4" not the 5" @16ft which you quoted,

What is the "sag"of your pole ? (your expression)

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Jeff

Just a quick note to answer your specific questions on this wider topic -

The Super-Lite 60 ft with our own unique carbon fibre and aluminium gooseneck (NOT Unger) and brush weighs 3.27 including section modifications.

Sag - The 5" difference was between the Super-Lite and the Featherlite at 16 ft.  This was measured with the same weight (356g) attached to the end of each pole.  This was not the distance from horizontal.

I agree with you the important thing is ease of use which both of these poles have in spades, although naturally for you and I weight is an important factor in the development of these poles and future products.

Alex

[paul mather]

Message to Jeff & Alex,

When you weighed your poles for the tenth time were you  both wearing your Anoraks!!!

[Alex Gardiner]

Definitely!!

[Jeff Brimble]

Alex again using your figure ( without me having to recheck my own weights)of 1636gm for my pole, the 3 extra extension sections I would use are 300gm each which makes 900gm add the original 1636 (your figure) and I make that 2536gm total weight. - Yours according to your own figures weigh a bit more at 2896.                           

[paul mather]

Come on Jeff, give it a rest mate I'm losing the will to live!

[Jeff Brimble]

Thanks Paul,  I will. Just trying to be helpful answering questions.