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choice.clean

  • Posts: 231
finding staff
« on: June 08, 2004, 12:23:36 am »
has anyone got tips on finding and retaining staff i just dont seem to be able to motivate staff they seem to flop after a few months what would you pay a person per hour. do you offer a bonus. has anyone found a good source for window cleaning staff. what are your terms and conditions i.e. holidays sickness. any tips could be usefull to me as my business plan is at a critical point i.e. work load is now exceeding my own ability to do it so keeping a man is critical it will not be so bad when i get to a second man. i.e. if one goes off hopefully we will still have one with us. :-/
1914

Old_Master

Re: finding staff
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2004, 01:34:49 am »
Our window cleaners work from 7.30 until 4.30 monday to friday.
Often they also work from 11.30 in the evening untill 4.30 in the morning carrying out special window cleaning on these occasions I give them the option as to whether they want to work or not- they usually choose to start working the next morning usually at 10.00.
How do we get these staff? by not employing window cleaners!!
In more than 20 years of employing window cleaners I found only one that wanted to work- most wanted to knock work and finish as quickly as possible.
We now only employ people that are used to hard work and train them in Window cleaning and WFP Pole work,  fully training them to operate cherry pickers, scissor lifts (IPAF) erect scaffold towers (PASMA) and get them First Aid trained and other special training as required for special works.
By providing full training we create PERFECT window cleaners who feel they are profesionals in their field and they therefore act and work in a profesional way.
Ex farm workers are the best workers - they are used to hard physical work and  in a field you cannot finish until the days work is done.
Incidently we reward them well.
On the night shifts they only physically work for two hours but we pay them for 10 hours.
They earn very well and so do we!

Oh one other point we dont employ youngsters having had too many bad experiances in the past. :)

Craig_Mawlam

Re: finding staff
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2004, 12:38:14 pm »
Your staff will stay if they are happy working for you, create the right working environment and motivate them properly. Its true that if you pay peanuts you get monkey's, however it really does'nt matter how much you pay someone, if you make their working day a misery they will leave! It depends on your attitude as much as theirs. Also I agree with all of the above.

rgds
Craig

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: finding staff
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2004, 11:01:34 pm »
I have a feeling you are not talking about the level and training of staff that the first reply to your posting mentioned.
At the moment I have stopped taking on people, the hassles outweighed the advantages.
Petting them on the books, getting employers liability and paying them a set rate did not work for me. I took them on, on a self employed basis, ensured they had public liability insurance and paid them 50% of whatever they turned over, in fact they actually took their money at source so to speak, this way the only money I saw was my 50%
The same would apply whetner they were working by my side or working by themselves, when I considered them well enough trained they would always be by themselves.
I have found that young guys who do not have the millstone of a mortgage around their necks worked out best.
The work they were doing was almost all domestic acoidiots, the 50% was enough to motivate them, give them more and you simply don't make enough out of it for it to be worth doing, less and it simply isn't enough to make it worthwhile for them to do it.
If you are doing a lot of large contracts and commercial work then paying them 50% would be far too high and also a little difficult to work out.
I am self employed and I don't get holiday pay, as they are self employed, neither do they. Holiday pay is considered by all as part of the job, not by me, it is a fabulous perk. To be paid and not have to work? boy would I like some of that :D
The same with regards sickness, when you employ someone on the books and incorperate all of these things and you are only a one man band just growing past the point of having more work than you can get around by yourself, these things are all way too expensive, unless of course you have the sort of contracts that pay well enough to cover all these costs.

It can take a long time though to find someone who will stay the course. I have recruited from the job centre and also out the local paper, word of mouth also worked.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Craig_Mawlam

Re: finding staff
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2004, 12:14:29 pm »

In order for window cleaning staff to qualify as S/E they must;

1) Provide their own ladders and cleaning tools
2) Choose their own hours
3) Show at least three different sources of income, i.e. have their own customers other than yours.
4) Provide their own transport and pay their own expenses.

If they fail to account for their tax and NI properly and they claim that you where their employer the Inland Revenue could make you pay their tax and NI as well as back dated employers contributions and a penalty.

In short, if these guys are working on your customers property and do not conform to the above then they are not S/E. If that is the case as well as the tax issues any of these guys could come back at you at an employment tribunal for denying them their rights regarding holiday pay and other benefits. If heaven forbid, one of them has an accident at work then you could really be in for the high jump!

Just a cautionary note, I know of window cleaners who have fallen into this trap believing that they where doing nothing wrong, however when the revenue caught up with them they where ruined financially.

If you feel the need to employ people then there are rules that must be adhered to. Employing people brings a whole new dynamic to running a small window cleaning business and is probably the biggest step you'll ever take. There are ways to legitimately employ S/E sub-contractors and these are explored as part of the BWCA's marketing course.

Kind regards
Craig Mawlam

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: finding staff
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2004, 03:04:14 pm »
would the insureance  need to be looked at as say a basic i mill public liablity to include sub contracting.
 

Craig_Mawlam

Re: finding staff
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2004, 03:57:22 pm »
Tom,

Insurance is certainly an issue, S/E sub-contractors should carry their own PL insurance and you should hold copies of their insurance certificates.  Again if you provide insurance cover for them then they are not really S/E and this is one of the ways that the IR measures S/E qualification. In Health & Safety law you are responsible for your sub-contractors and they should supply you with their risk and method statements for each contract you give them, although these can be generic documents if the work is of a similar nature as would be the case for residential window cleaning.

Hope this helps,

regards
Craig Mawlam

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: finding staff
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2004, 04:11:39 pm »
thanks craig
so realy if sub contracting to self employed you need employers liablityto comply with h/s law etc
tom

Craig_Mawlam

Re: finding staff
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2004, 06:18:08 pm »
Tom,

Sorry if I did'nt make it clear, both main contractor (those holding the contracts) and sub-contractor (those doing the work) must have PL insurance. If either party employs staff then they will require EL also. You do not need to provide employers liability insurance for S/E subcontractors provided you enure that they are bonified, legitimate sub-contractors that is.

rgds
Craig

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: finding staff
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 01:13:09 am »
yes businesslink are very good we are use them a lot some of there advice is half price or even free ;)


Andy

choice.clean

  • Posts: 231
Re: finding staff
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2004, 01:28:51 am »
thanks for the help full comments dare i ask what is a good rate of pay

for 18 year old non driver

25 year old driver supervisor

i live in south wales out of town its easy to get the youngsters but more difficult to get the older ones but the youngsters last about a month then die as regards motivation or start taking days off every other week

i currently pay them 5.00 per hour with 4 weeks paid hols and a 4 day week i.e. mon tues thurs fri start 7.30 from the yard return 4.30 with one hour unpaid for lunch and breaks
1914

riz

  • Posts: 162
Re: finding staff
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2004, 01:36:30 am »
Hi,

£40 per day? seems a bit low. How much do you earn from it or is that a percentage?

Regards

Paul

choice.clean

  • Posts: 231
Re: finding staff
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2004, 09:45:29 am »
thats employed status for them bear in mind i have got to pay there liability costs and all equipment and employers national insurance so the true costs top out at over 250 per week for each employee plus admin costs of doing paye and we supply work clothes i,m not trying to be tight with these guys but the pay reflects true costs as per above i can,t pay any other way i,d love to eliminate the admin and pay um cash but want top conform with legislation
How much would you pay a man per day as per my above question? :-/
1914

riz

  • Posts: 162
Re: finding staff
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2004, 12:26:08 pm »
Now that you've detailed all that goes into it probaly about the same!! I know a few chaps round here that pay between £8 to £10 per hour but i asssume thats self employed. so you're about on track all things considered.

Regards

paul

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: finding staff
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2004, 11:56:35 pm »
i have just taken some one on for 7 pounds a hour and i pay sub work 10 to 12 pounds a hour but that is only on business to business work.

andy

choice.clean

  • Posts: 231
Re: finding staff
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2004, 09:26:26 am »
thanks at least i know i am approximately on course
i was worried that i could never make the sums add up
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seanc

  • Posts: 148
Re: finding staff
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2004, 09:28:54 pm »
one idea ( i know i might get slated and you are already paying them) is say to them if ALL the work is completed and you get NO complaints you will treat them ie take them to the pub on fryday after work or even buy them a chinese most places do all you can eat sit down for £5
yet again yes you have paid them but rewards are good they should work faster to get the job done and remember the no compaints clause if you get one dont take them.

taking them out would be better than giveing money £ extra would not mean much but for some reson food or drinks seem to show more appreshiation
do it today tommorow never comes

WavieDavie

  • Posts: 951
Re: finding staff
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2004, 03:32:55 am »
Poleman and Sean,

I've been paying £7 an hour PAYE for the past three years or so, and due to put it up quite soon.

Our "salary enhancement package" involves them turning up on time every day, giving it laldy to finish early by the end of the week, and so long as we get no callbacks they get paid for the full week. If they're late any day, or we get a callback, they only get paid for the hours worked. My present crew of two have had one callback in their three months which was due to a misunderstanding and so didn't count.

There's nowhere to hide if there's only three of you, and a bit of good natured banter works far better than a waggy finger.

When work's done, the work's done. They're great guys, but take them off to the pub? How on Earth can you crack the whip if you need to if they've seen you half-blootered? This might sound cold, but they might be socialising with you out of a sense of "duty" or of keeping in with you. Not for me, but each to his own.

Have a good weekend, I'm catching up with bookwork (soddit!)
You're a Scottish window-cleaner? Licensed or not, get yourself along to www.slwcn.org right now !

Davie Park
Dalzell Window Cleaning Service - Edinburgh www.windowscleaner.co.uk

choice.clean

  • Posts: 231
Re: finding staff
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2004, 10:12:36 am »
i like this comment it sounds just like the sort of business i am trying to create i have a good driver supervisor it seems now had hime with me 2 weeks lets hope i am starting to turn the corner with my recruitment problems :) thanks for all the tips folks
1914